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Post by c0gnate on Apr 17, 2008 16:42:42 GMT -5
for example look at the way Spaniards, French etc speak a Latin tongue which was introduced into their countries by the Romans but that doesnt mean they are descended from the Romans Very true. But some of us are direct descendants of famous people of antiquity. Muslims for example keep track of the descendants of Muhammad, and DNA studies have shown the Jewish Levis and Cohens are descended from a small group or even one man (i.e., Levi?) of the priestly class. Several million men are hypothesized to descend from Genghis Khan: news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0214_030214_genghis.html
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 17:04:08 GMT -5
Nobody said that todays Hungary was unpopulated but don't expect too big population either as the territory was a peripherical region, no sign of big cities this period, the slavs built some mud forts but even those were not too significant. But big forests, big swamps... Btw how many ppl could live in Europe total around 900 AD?
And maybe its surprising for u, but the ancient Magyars themself knew agriculture and how to herd animals.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 17:25:51 GMT -5
And most likely it happened, there are written sources (i think Ibn Rusta and Gardezi) what mention that in the 9th century Magyars were involved in slave trade with the Byzantine, they sold them Slavic slaves in Kerch. No reason to think that they didn't keep the nicer girls for themself. By the way, who do we see the original Magyars? those who separated from other Ugrians around 1000-500 BC according to the linguists or those who entered the Carpathian basin in the 9th-10th century AD? there was more than a millenia between these two events and the Magyars (and other Uralics and Altaics) changed many times their location and had enough time to mix with everybody during this period. What was the original race of the Uralic ppl? i quoted Coon, he says they were whites. (btw the Turanid race itself is a hybrid white-asian thingy, so they are as much "non-white" as they are "non-yellow"). Then it is also known (especially based on linguists) that Magyars came under an early Iranian influence thats why we have some basic iranian words in our vocablulary so again its very possible that we intermerried with them. And this all happened before the Magyars entered today's Hungary. fifty thousand adult healthy male fighters=at least as many adult women (though it is likely there were more women as polygamy was not prohibited i think) plus more children and a fewer number of elders (as i guess the age structure could look like a pyramid not like in todays western societies). Fifty thousand permanently armed fighters means hundreds of thousands of ppl together.
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Post by c0gnate on Apr 17, 2008 17:28:08 GMT -5
And maybe its surprising for u, but the ancient Magyars themself knew agriculture and how to herd animals. Are you saying they were weekend warriors?
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Post by c0gnate on Apr 17, 2008 17:36:47 GMT -5
fifty thousand adult healthy male fighters=at least as many adult women (though it is likely there were more women as polygamy was not prohibited i think) plus more children and a fewer number of elders (as i guess the age structure could look like a pyramid not like in todays western societies). Fifty thousand permanently armed fighters means hundreds of thousands of ppl together. Not if the fighters got their women wherever they could find them. As you say, they sold some off and kept others for themselves. As to the old and enfeebled, life as a marauder, raider and slave trader was too harsh to keep many alive.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 17:46:02 GMT -5
fifty thousand adult healthy male fighters=at least as many adult women (though it is likely there were more women as polygamy was not prohibited i think) plus more children and a fewer number of elders (as i guess the age structure could look like a pyramid not like in todays western societies). Fifty thousand permanently armed fighters means hundreds of thousands of ppl together. Not if the fighters got their women wherever they could find them. As you say, they sold some off and kept others for themselves. As to the old and enfeebled, life as a marauder, raider and slave trader was too harsh to keep many alive. The captured women became part of the tribe of the man (yeah evil patriarchal societies )and their mixed children became evil barbarian marauders themself like the daddy and they captured new slaves and so on..
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Post by c0gnate on Apr 17, 2008 17:52:08 GMT -5
The captured women became part of the tribe of the man (yeah evil patriarchal societies )and their mixed children became evil barbarian marauders themself like the daddy and they captured new slaves and so on.. Sure. But the point is that fifty thousand armed fighter-raider-plunderers, all of them men, would have been more than enough to take over a much larger pre-existing farming population in the Carpathian basin. Ever wonder why in the Magyar language practically all of the vocabulary pertaining to agriculture is Slavic?
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Apr 17, 2008 17:52:23 GMT -5
"Periferical region" were almost all provinces of the Roman Empire (except Rome). Further more, ppl had no need of big cities. The way of life was quite different in the middle ages and most of them had even no need of any state system.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 18:30:52 GMT -5
basic words for agriculture like árpa (barley), búza (wheat), eke (plough), tarló (waste land/stubble field), szõlõ (grapes), szántó (plough land), csepû (tow), sarló (sickle), boglya (stack) kender (hemp), gyümölcs (fruit) etc? you are familiar with the Slavic languages but as far as i know these are NOT slavic but mostly turkic, i.e. came to Hungarian before the conquest. Yes indeed we have many Slavic loanwords relating to agriculture (and other fields of life), but that we have plenty of non Slavic words indicate that Magyars already knew agriculture before interacted with the Slavs.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 18:32:35 GMT -5
"Periferical region" were almost all provinces of the Roman Empire (except Rome). Further more, ppl had no need of big cities. The way of life was quite different in the middle ages and most of them had even no need of any state system. so how many ppl could live in Europe in that time (around 9-10th century). How big could be the population density?
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Post by c0gnate on Apr 17, 2008 18:47:08 GMT -5
basic words for agriculture like árpa (barley), búza (wheat), eke (plough), tarló (waste land/stubble field), szõlõ (grapes), szántó (plough land), csepû (tow), sarló (sickle), boglya (stack) kender (hemp), gyümölcs (fruit) etc? you are familiar with the Slavic languages but as far as i know these are NOT slavic but mostly turkic, i.e. came to Hungarian before the conquest. Yes indeed we have many Slavic loanwords relating to agriculture (and other fields of life), but that we have plenty of non Slavic words indicate that Magyars already knew agriculture before interacted with the Slavs. Against those dozen words, I have seen lists of Slavic agricultural lexicon in Hungarian numbering in the hundreds of terms. Moreover the presence of a few older, non Slavic words, doesn't mean the speakers practiced agriculture, just as knowing what "interest rate" means doesn't make one a banker.
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Post by c0gnate on Apr 17, 2008 18:48:23 GMT -5
"Periferical region" were almost all provinces of the Roman Empire (except Rome). Further more, ppl had no need of big cities. The way of life was quite different in the middle ages and most of them had even no need of any state system. so how many ppl could live in Europe in that time (around 9-10th century). How big could be the population density? I'd say this is worth Googling.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 19:05:19 GMT -5
basic words for agriculture like árpa (barley), búza (wheat), eke (plough), tarló (waste land/stubble field), szõlõ (grapes), szántó (plough land), csepû (tow), sarló (sickle), boglya (stack) kender (hemp), gyümölcs (fruit) etc? you are familiar with the Slavic languages but as far as i know these are NOT slavic but mostly turkic, i.e. came to Hungarian before the conquest. Yes indeed we have many Slavic loanwords relating to agriculture (and other fields of life), but that we have plenty of non Slavic words indicate that Magyars already knew agriculture before interacted with the Slavs. Against those dozen words, I have seen lists of Slavic agricultural lexicon in Hungarian numbering in the hundreds of terms. Moreover the presence of a few older, non Slavic words, doesn't mean the speakers practiced agriculture, just as knowing what "interest rate" means doesn't make one a banker. there is no reason to think that they didn't practice agriculture at all. And yes knowing what interest rate means doesn't make us bankers. But when 1000 years later archeologists will find a table with the inscription "interest rate" they will have every reason to assume that the society which left the table there had some bankers.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 19:14:46 GMT -5
so how many ppl could live in Europe in that time (around 9-10th century). How big could be the population density? I'd say this is worth Googling. ok now i did: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demographyEstimates of total population of Europe are speculative, but at the time of Charlemagne it is thought to be between 25 and 30 million, and of this 15 million are in the Carolingian Empire that included France, the Low Countries, half of Germany, Austria, and Italy. Unlike the frontier settler image of a lone self-sufficient farmer who moves when he sees smoke from the neighbor's chimney, medieval settlements were thickly populated, with large zones of unpopulated wilderness in between. To be alone in the Middle Ages, and not part of a community, carried great risks. Crowded communities existed as islands in a sea of uncultivated wilderness.so it says 25-30 mill total during the beginning of 9th century, -15 million that lived in todays France, Low Countries, half of Germany, Austria, Italy. The other 10-15 millions lived in Skandinavia, British Isles, Iberian peninsula, Balkans Central-Europe, Balkans, Eastern Europe together? thats very few, its unlikely that millions or even 1 million ppl lived in the Carpathian Basin that time. (see Rhezus there were big unpopulated territories in Europe) if any of you have better sources share with us.
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Post by oszkarthehun on Apr 17, 2008 19:19:05 GMT -5
Again you are talking about advanced warfare and some might say advanced society against less technologically advanced aboriginal populations.
If Magyars had such small numbers how was it they were able to bring down the Moravian empire then raid Western and Central Europe for 100 years not to mention they were so feared by the Italians that they collected yearly Tax from Italy for several years.
Its not as if they were fighting against less technologically military advaced peoples and one would think after 100 years raiding Western Europe that somebody would put together an army to tackle Hungary and rid them for good , so why didnt they , I imagine part of the reason is because they still had significant numbers in Hungary and would have been a force to be reckoned with dont forget after all the raiding etc they were still able to defeat and conquer Croatia which was already a Kingdom in itself with modern army of the time and significant population also.
I dont know how its worked out but I have seen Turanic element in Hungary listed as high as 25%.
As Yeni said I think its entirely possible I would say its even most likely Magyars had mixed in with Slavs or other Caucasian peoples before they entered Carpathian Basin and yes its quite likely some of them were aready quite causcasoid before they mixed with inhabitants of Carpathians, they had to keep reproducing and the women they kept became part of the tribe it was patriachial society so the kids grew up as Magyars whereever the mother was from didnt matter.
From what I have read about anthropological studies it seems not great deal of Arpads people had Mongol physiology the finds that indicate Mongol look are apparently more the Avrs or at least some of the Avars as they were mixed people too and I think also the Cumans/Kuns although there are even some historical accounts of some Cumans having fair hair and green eyes. Some of the Turanian element found among Arpads people is thought to be physiologically closer to something like Azeri's people from Azerbaijan region. If one looks at Finno-Ugric peoples today there is quite a range in physiology its hard to determine exactly how they looked originally because many of them have mixed over time even if we look at some of todays Mongolid looking Khanty it begs the question is that how they always looked or is it result of later mixing. . For example the Chuvash are from Bashkir region supposedly where Hungarians resided for sometime before enetering Carpathian Basin Chuvash are considered to be Ugrian and Turkic mixed people whichh is similiar to how Magyars have been described if one looks at Chuvash you will see they are very caucasoid looking.
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Well for whateveer reason the Magyars were then perhaps the most succesful out of all of these supposed Barbarian peoples they maintained their identity and language which if we compare them seems an unusal thing and unlike those that went before them they settled in one place and formed a nation that has allready survived more than one thousand years.
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storm
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Post by storm on Apr 17, 2008 19:36:33 GMT -5
Here is what the famous anthropoligist Coon had to say about the Magyars (this is from his book "The Races of Europe"). It makes interesting reading:
"The Magyars
There are approximately eleven millions of Hungarians in Europe, of whom some eight million live within the boundaries of their own kingdom three million have been placed in exile by the Treaty of Versailles These three million inhabit (or inhabited) the adjacent nations of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and Rumania, most notably the latter, where a large bloc of Magyars, the Szekelers, live in Transylvania, under the curve of the Carpathians. Other groups are scattered widely between the Carpathians and the boundary of present Hungary.
The history of Hungary, reviewed in Chapter VII, has been one of extraordinary complexity. Within the Christian era the Hungarian plain has witnessed the invasion and settlement of numerous Slavs, Germans, Huns, Avars, and Ugrian Magyars; the introduction of foreigners of all kinds by the early Hungarian kings in their efforts to create a highly civilized state added further confusion. Out of this medley of peoples with their many languages and cultures, one speech, a partially Turkicized Ugric, has survived; one dominant cultural pattern has arisen; this seems partly Slavic, partly central Asiatic, and Romanized through the agency of Catholicism.
The ethnic structure of Hungary is extraordinarily complex, and as yet not wholly known. Many small sub-groups, located in various parts of Hungary and elsewhere, claim special descent, not from Arpad and his followers, but from the Avars, the Cumans, and other Turkish invaders. The Szekelers, who are claimed to be the purest of the Magyars, in the sense that they preserve the ancient types most faithfully, are descendants of colonists sent to the Carpathians to ward off the inroads of the Cumans. - These various traditions and individual histories indicate that the formation of the Hungarian people was no simple matter.
Almost every race or sub-race in Europe, and many in Asia, have contributed to the Magyar physical amalgam, and an adequate anthropometric study of the Hungarians would be a task of great magnitude. So far such a study has not been made, or at least, has not been published. Contemporary Hungarian anthropologists have concentrated rather upon the prodigious task of untangling the skeletal history of their country, with considerable success, as reviewed in Chapter VII. With this ample background, the analysis of the living material which they have accumulated and are accumulating will be made possible.116
The stature of living Magyars within the present kingdom of Hungary varies but slightly from region to region; local means run from 167 to 168 cm. The same is true of most of the Hungarian districts in Rumania, except for the Transylvanian Magyars, whose mean is 169 cm., and the Szekelers, with 170 cm. Thus the Magyars are taller than either the Ugrians or the Turks of eastern Russia, with a tendency for stature to increase from west to east.
The cephalic index mean maintains a brachycephalic level of 84 to 87, with the highest figures in the southeast, in the neighborhood of Szeged and Arad; on the whole, excessive brachycephaly is a South Hungarian phenomenon. The tall Szekelers of the bend of the Carpathians have the low mean, for Magyars, of 81.5. Head sizes of Hungarians are of normal, central European dimensions; the more brachycephalic groups have the larger heads, with length means in the neighborhood of 185 mm., and breadts of approximately 158 mm. They are thus equivalent to most Dinarics and Alpines in this respect. The less brachycephalic groups farther north have lengths of approximately 181—182 mm., and breadths of 152—153 mm.; figures of Neo-Danubian size. The Szekelers, by contrast, have large heads, with length and breadth means of approximately 191 mm. and 156 mm. If they have more Asiatic blood than the other Magyars, it must be Turkish in the sense of the Turkomans and Azerbaijanis.
Small series of Hungarians, taken as a whole, show fully European cranial and facial dimensions. Total face heights of less than 120 mm. are reminiscent of Ugrians as well as of modern Slavs, and are too short for either central Asiatic Turks or Dinarics. The mean bizygomatic diameter of 140 mm. precludes, furthermore, extensive Mongol or Turkish influence. A moderate leptorrhiny, with a mean nasal index of 68, is too high for Dinarics, but adequate for Neo-Danubians, Turks, or Alpines. On the whole, the metrical characters of the Magyars, as revealed by small and perhaps poorly representative samples, indicate Neo-Danubian and Alpine racial elements as the most prevalent, especially the former.
The pigment characters, judging from what has been published, are on the brunet side of medium; Over 50 per cent of eyes seem to be dark or predominantly dark, while black and dark brown hair shades reach approximately the same figure. The majority of Magyars have straight nasal profiles; a large minority of 25 per cent are concave, however, and a few of these are flattish in a manner which suggests ultimate Finnic or mongoloid derivation. Nasal convexity is not common, at least in the small series available.
According to Bartucz’s analysis, only about 15 per cent of the population of Hungary is Alpine racially, and this element is commonest in the German territories of the southern part of the kingdom. A Neo-Danubian racial type117 is the most numerous single element, which accounts for about 35 per cent of the whole, and is commonest in the northeast, over against Slovakia, and in this section it rises to 60 per cent of the population Dinarics include 20 per cent of the total and are concentrated in the south and especially the southwest, in contact with essentially Dinaric regions in Yugoslavia.
Bartucz finds about 20 per cent of the Magyars to show evidence of Asiatic Turkish blood, in the relatively non-mongoloid sense, while about 5 per cent manifest clearly recognizable mongoloid features. These Asiatic elements are not evenly distributed, but are concentrated in the purer Hungarian pastoral population, while the Turkish element is said to be especially visible in the nobility. The 5 per cent which remains after Bartucz’s partitionment must include Nordics and Norics, with the latter also forming part of the Dinaric allotment, as well as a few brunet Mediterraneans
Bartucz’s analysis, based upon long observation as well as upon unpublished materials, is more valid than deductions made from the small series of detailed measurements at our disposal. Hungary fits into the racial boundaries of the countries which surround her, without sharp transitions; at the same time she provides a refuge in central Europe for a minor central Asiatic survival. It is not accurate to say that the pre-Magyar inhabitants of Hungary have completely, or almost completely, absorbed the invaders whose speech is that of the nation, for the Ugric followers of Arpad, who came to these plains in thousands, must have been largely Neo-Danubian in race, as are many of their present-day descendants and successors."
so as we can see, having Magyar ancestry does not necessarily mean you have a Mongolid appearance as the original Magyars were largely caucasoid themselves.
I will not make a judgement on the percentage of modern day Hungarians who are of real Magyar descent as i havent been to Hungary so i am not in a position to make an assumption
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Post by oszkarthehun on Apr 17, 2008 19:50:46 GMT -5
Yes I have read this before and it is very interesting especially this part ...
Bartucz’s analysis, based upon long observation as well as upon unpublished materials, is more valid than deductions made from the small series of detailed measurements at our disposal. Hungary fits into the racial boundaries of the countries which surround her, without sharp transitions; at the same time she provides a refuge in central Europe for a minor central Asiatic survival. It is not accurate to say that the pre-Magyar inhabitants of Hungary have completely, or almost completely, absorbed the invaders whose speech is that of the nation, for the Ugric followers of Arpad, who came to these plains in thousands, must have been largely Neo-Danubian in race, as are many of their present-day descendants and successors."
the othere parts are consistant with what I said earlier being that the Turanian element was not Mongolic but rather Turanian closer to Azerbajaini's.
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storm
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Post by storm on Apr 17, 2008 20:11:50 GMT -5
i think many make a mistake and believe that Central Asian always equates Mongolic.
as i said earlier during the period within which the Magyars lived in Central Asia the region was predominantly Caucasoid with minor Mongolid influences. it only became predominantly Mongolid after the Mongolian invasions. by this time the Magyars had already migrated westwards
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Post by c0gnate on Apr 17, 2008 20:54:27 GMT -5
The basic issue is whether the Magyars came in large numbers into a relatively unpopulated Carpathian basin as peaceful, hardworking, noble families, as modern Hungarian historiography likes to see it, or whether they came in as small groups of plunderers, raiders and slave traders (mostly male) on top of a large pre-existing agricultural and pastoral population as the rest of the world sees them.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Apr 17, 2008 21:41:59 GMT -5
The basic issue is whether the Magyars came in large numbers into a relatively unpopulated Carpathian basin as peaceful, hardworking, noble families, as modern Hungarian historiography likes to see it, or whether they came in as small groups of plunderers, raiders and slave traders (mostly male) on top of a large pre-existing agricultural and pastoral population as the rest of the world sees them. or C: they came in a larger number (=few hundred thousands what was large back then ) as a semi-nomadic (=primary cattle and horse and other animal herding with subsidiary role for agriculture) tribal federation with their family and animals where they found a similar number or slightly more (but also in hundreds of thousands) mostly agricultural and pastorial population who were also remants of pervious migrations. And later most of these local population was assimilated. Then new wars, drastic populations losses (like the Tatar raid 1241-42, Ottoman-Habsburg wars, plagues) and mass immigrations happened and thats how you have modern Hungarians. (i doubt the rest of the world cares too much about the Carpathian basin, mostly only the neighbors.)
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