Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 7:51:55 GMT -5
I wouldn't be so certain, at least judging by your disputes with Yahac, and both of you seem to be pretty interested in Koran. Anittas, I think you can still find old women who wear something like veil, especially in the more remoted areas throughout the Balkan. It is just some sort of tradition and has nothing to do with religion. because the Kuran gives a personalmessage to every individual that reads it. Thats why people differ in slight interpretations. With debates with yahac and myself there are some really easy answers: lYahac said here: Eventhough the details of it weren't revealed in Qur'an "hijab" - "covering" is a requirement for women whenever they they go outside or have to face strangers. Whether they will take it seriously or not is their own bussiness. Since they will be accountable for that they can take their own risks. It is a part of the test for them.
Err hello if the details are not revealed how the heck do you know it is a requirement? I assume because Yahac also reads Hadiths - Which I don't take as the word of God - and since god already said: THIS IS THE ONLY BOOK U SHOULD FOLLOW. Then if the Hadiths are not followed It isn't as though you are commiting a sin - because the sins are already set out in the Kuran. It doesnt say anywhere u must cover every part of your body. It says cover ur breasts and be modest. This doesn't mean u have to wear a super tight turban with a black batman cloak.
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Post by yahadj on May 24, 2008 8:41:42 GMT -5
I used to belive the same in the beginning. And I wish it was as simple as that. But there are many verses in Qur'an where Allah commands us to obey Him and His Messenger. What do you make out of this? What I understand is that many of the practices and decrees of the Prophet have important guidance for us. I don't know how the opposite can be claimed and supported?
Of course Qur'an is the main source. It is basically about the main principles. Many of the rules are very well detailed. But some of them are not. Then what are we supposed to do? Just to make them up? Or to look for the guidance of the prophet? Or should we assume the message is incomplete (hasha) and simply forget about those??
The details of some issues are found in Hadith. But we have to be very careful about the authenticity of them. The authentic ones are called Sahih Hadith. And we can only value those. So I believe we are supposed to look for guidance in them, too.
Here are some verses to support this view:
"3:32 Say: "obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith."
"3:132 And obey Allah and the Messenger. that ye may obtain mercy."
"4:13 Those are limits set by Allah. those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement."
"4:59 O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination."
and so many others... It is clear that the Messenger had the full authority of Allah SWT. Thus his decisions and rulings would have a high guiding value.
Now would you prefer to ignore that and invent your own answers or instead seek further guidance from authentic Hadiths, too?
Of course if anything in Hadiths contradicts with Qur'an can't be taken seriously. But anyway that is one of the requirements to call a hadith authentic...
Allah knows the best.
PEACE
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Post by vanilo on May 24, 2008 8:48:21 GMT -5
There's no crime in a woman wanting to experience all the good things in life, and feel attractive and sexy - not at all. It's human nature to want attention and recognition for who one are, what one looks like, what one does, what one accomplishes etc. But personally, I think a woman must have extremely low self-esteem and perception on her self-worth if "goodies in life" and "feeling sexy" is something she gets out of men who percieve her as a pair of breasts and a vagina.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 9:51:13 GMT -5
There ain't anything wrong with women wanting attention. There is something wrong with 'needing' attention. I agree with what Vanilo said, feeling sexy isn't about a bunch of blokes thinking about u as they would a blow updoll.
The sexiest organ we possess is the brain.
One simple word can drive a man wild - u just need to be able to know ur man. Or else which man doesn't look at breasts and arse?(not inc gay) on a sick twist here, my friend came to Turkey - Izmir from America and says he couldn't believe the tight jeans that the headscarved girls were wearing. The amount of make upon there faces. He said it turned him on more than girls in mini skirts. He said he wanted to rip off there headscarves lol - now maybe my friend is a perv or maybe he is an extreme example of a guy who prefers to see just that little bit of shape to get his imaginations into the xxx zone.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 9:56:43 GMT -5
Yahac. The Hadiths are related to Islam at the time.
at a time where boxfresh jeans and dungarees didn't exist. Where men were starved for sex due to all the wars and battles they attended. Times change. The hadiths need to be applied rationally if you choose to do so- If the prophet was alive today and in Europe would he still require women to cover up their hair in order not to attract attention from men? or would he say cover ur arses and tits? We won't know - we just need to be logical, BTW im not sure about how authentic any hadiths are to be honest. were they handwritten by Hz Muhammed. Were they written about him - could they have been changed? distorted, misinterpreted? YES therefore we need to be very wary when following them Also when u posted before u stated 'u must be covered' please next time u speak about ıslam give us the backup to your reason. Either say thisis from the Hadiths/my opinion/ or kuran.since less knowledged people will assume this isfrom the Kuran.
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Post by jerryspringer on May 24, 2008 12:02:46 GMT -5
Speaking about sex and religion: how does Yahac feel about fvcking a 7-year old? Okay, let's raise the age a bit: a 9-year old.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 13:05:47 GMT -5
why? r u offering urself?
Learn to respect others views. Your comment is idiotic since your country men are still selling babies to whoever offers the most money.
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Post by jerryspringer on May 24, 2008 13:49:42 GMT -5
why? r u offering urself? Learn to respect others views. Your comment is idiotic since your country men are still selling babies to whoever offers the most money. Your religion is not based on respecting other views; otherwise, it would not condemn others to hellfire. Okay, you say that my comment is idiotic because my countrymen sell babies to the highest offer; does that means that my comment wouldn't be idiotic, if my countrymen would not sell babies to the highest offer?
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 14:09:22 GMT -5
No it means that you are wasting time trying to provoke, when u are in a position to be more easily provoked.
BTW my religion is based on respecting other views. Only God can condemn some1 to hell.
You aren't allowed to judge others in Islam.
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Post by jerryspringer on May 24, 2008 14:31:57 GMT -5
Perhaps the men that are trying to sell the babies are not ethnically Romanian. Have you ever considered that?
The Kuran condemns the non-believers to Hell.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 14:54:47 GMT -5
The Kuran says only God will judge all.
I clearly stated : Countrymen - I didn't say Romanian.
Anyway - I made my point I believe.
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Post by jerryspringer on May 24, 2008 15:02:31 GMT -5
No Muslim ever tried to explain how an old dude could have intercourse with a kid and become prophet. You can say that it was the culture of the time, but the dude was meant to be a prophet. He was advised by God on morals. I guess God forgot to tell him that fvcking kids is not such a good thing, right?
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Know yourself...
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 17:10:35 GMT -5
errr hello were u there when they married?
u don't know what age she was at.
neither do I .. don't talk without evidence
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Know yourself...
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 17:15:54 GMT -5
BTW its a sin to consummate marraige before the girl gets her period
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Post by jerryspringer on May 24, 2008 17:21:56 GMT -5
What source claims she was 9?
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 17:24:40 GMT -5
Lıke I said before: if it isn't in the Kuran. Then It may not be true.
The girl would have had to have her period before they can have sex.
Thats all I know.
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Post by jerryspringer on May 24, 2008 17:42:47 GMT -5
Well, that question was directed to Yahac, anyway. It is he who believes in the Hadiths.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 24, 2008 17:49:17 GMT -5
ok
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Post by yahadj on May 25, 2008 2:39:01 GMT -5
I am sorry dude, but no religion says if you don't believe that is OK. All of the (monotheistic) religions bring salvation to believers!!! So what do you expect? Why that bothers you? Then why don't you just believe? Does it worth the risk?
As far as the stupid 9 yr old issue goes,I think Desire handled that very well. Nobody kept public records in ancient Arabia to be able to say for sure who is how old. It was an estimate at best. But a woman can only be married after she started getting her periods. And Aisha did have them.
And by the way did you know that until 1889 the age of consent in California was only 10. People didn't use to live long and were getting matured early. What you gonna do? You can't apply todays norms to the past. Anyway todays norms are way too corrupted.
Is that the only argument that holds you from accepting Islam? Since you got your answer and you are satissfied, right? Ok, if you are ready now I can help you for the conversion... ;D
PEACE
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Post by jerryspringer on May 25, 2008 5:49:25 GMT -5
Aisha, at that age, was not a woman. She was a girl.
Buddism is a monotheistic religion that doesn't condemn non-believers to Hell. The ancient cult of Aten didn't do it. The Pythagorean Greeks that believed in the Monad, didn't do it. And there may be other examples.
It's just these three crappy Abrahamic religions that try to intimidate people into believing. These three religions have caused a great misery in the world. My estimation is that in around 500 years, people will have stopped believing in these fairytales.
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