SuperAlbanian
Amicus
King of Gays
20%
CANARIS IS THE REAL KING OF GAYS! OH WAIT! HES THE QUEEN OF GAYS!!!!
Posts: 1,283
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Post by SuperAlbanian on Apr 21, 2008 4:46:38 GMT -5
..... If yes, what changes would you make to the political system to make sure it worked and didn't result in all the republics and Kosovo itself declaring independence?
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Post by SKORIC on Apr 21, 2008 5:09:48 GMT -5
Damn, i dont know how many of these topics have been made these last few years..
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 21, 2008 6:50:47 GMT -5
At the moment l'm not sure. I thought Yugoslavia was a good thing until Albanian nationalism destroyed everything.
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Apr 21, 2008 7:47:01 GMT -5
god no!
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Apr 21, 2008 13:50:45 GMT -5
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 21, 2008 14:00:34 GMT -5
Then offcourse YU wanst the same under Milosevic as it was under TITO... Yeah... less people "disappeared" under Milosevic then under Tito.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Apr 21, 2008 14:09:28 GMT -5
Then offcourse YU wanst the same under Milosevic as it was under TITO... Yeah... less people "disappeared" under Milosevic then under Tito. Tell me who dissapeard? I know the fact that my father wasnt in the communist party still he had a good job he had a new car every year we could travel every summer and winter where we wanted... We had money to spend and to save without thinking how to make it next month.... Non of my family was active in any political section.. YU wasnt like russia where people couldnt express their selfs or travel to other countrys, i dont know why some people get that feeling...
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Apr 21, 2008 14:25:17 GMT -5
^ They get that feeling because in the modern times, everyone can tarnish the image of Yugoslavia, because there is no more slavic pride, and because nobody will stand up and say the truth (rather be a part of the group).
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 21, 2008 14:36:44 GMT -5
Ever heard of Goli Otok? Dapcevic, Dijak, Venko Markovski, Dragoljub Micunovic, Dobroslav Paraga, Pavao Vuk-Pavlovic, Nikola Kljusev spent time there. These are only the famous ones, there were countless others who were sent to the Goli Otok concentration camp or shot and buried by Tito's goons. I know the fact that my father wasnt in the communist party still he had a good job he had a new car every year we could travel every summer and winter where we wanted... We had money to spend and to save without thinking how to make it next month.... Non of my family was active in any political section.. You question government bureaucracy, you question Tito or you question Marxism and end up in Goli Otok or six feet under. So things were affordable... did your parents own any land? No because no one was allowed to own land, everyone payed rent to the government and that was one of the ways the government kept things at an affordable level. Another way was having a massive deficit and having a large dept that Tito wasn't interested in paying off. Tito's mismanagement of the economy was one of the reasons Yugoslavia fell apart the way it did. It could not sustain itself economically. YU wasnt like russia where people couldnt express their selfs or travel to other countrys, i dont know why some people get that feeling... Russia is an incredibly free country compared to communist Yugoslavia so I have no idea why you are comparing the two.
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Post by karabin on Apr 21, 2008 23:49:58 GMT -5
I sure did. My grandfather was sent there for 3 years immediately after having served all the years in ww2 fighting in (2 proleterska) alongside those who actually protected tito. Not a nice thank you now is it.
That does not however mean that we did not have it good in yugolsavia. Personally i wish i had a childhood and life up until the war like my parents did.
It is not quite correct, but mostly. You were allowed to own land but the government had the right to take it away from you whenever they felt like and pay you a ridiculous sum of $ that they thought was right and usually it was completely undervalued (as you'd expect). So if you analyze that you practically did not own anything.
That is correct. Most people in YU only thought about today completely ignoring as to what would happen tomorrow. Sure it was good whilst tito was there and alive but no-one thought of the consequences that would arise once he was gone.
The way the YU economy was handled was wrong as well. I remember my mother telling me that in her firm workers used the firm phones to make international calls at the expense of the firm which was owned by the government like everything else. Now you might say big deal, but it is a big deal because in YU you could not loser your job that easy so all the expenses that you incurred with your carelessness had to be covered by someone and hence the huge debt YU was left to deal with when TITO died.
Essentially the things that led to the collapse of YU (and do not believe when they tell you those lies about some religious or nationalistic reasons. Sure those were there but only as a tool not the initiation) were:
- only 1 political party. No competiton is never good - 1 man in power untill he dies. That is never right. - Worry about today and not tomorrow. Huge financial dept - Economy was not regulated properly - Lack of privatization - Not everyone is the same, therefore it is a bad idea everyone was treated like that at the expense of others - People understand two things. Reward and Pain/Fear. YU was lacking reward. - Skill levels were undervalued and underpaid. A firm director could go into a new apartment block housing and pick the flat of his desire where he'd like to live whilst a university professor had to fight for it at the court... On this one i am talking from my own family experience. .....etc ...etc....etc the list is long
But none the less, mentally and economically (for a period of time) life in YU was like nothing else. We were one of the strongest countries in Europe. It really is too bad that it did not work out.
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Post by bob1389 on Apr 22, 2008 0:12:55 GMT -5
The Serb nation made a great mistake in 1918 and is paying for it till this very day.
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Post by zgembo on Apr 22, 2008 6:32:58 GMT -5
Off-topic posts deleted.
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stickinthemud
Membrum
Economist, Historian, Philosopher
Posts: 131
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Post by stickinthemud on Apr 22, 2008 7:49:47 GMT -5
Would I bring back Yugoslavia?
I don't know how personally qualified I am to answer that question since I never lived there but speaking strictly from a non-nationalistic and socio-economic point of view I would answer no.
Well you got one up on me since I never lived there so my personal experiences are very limited. I do know that there was strong opposition to Yugoslavia or at least the Yugoslav system both from within and out of Yugoslavia. I think one has to look at everything that transpired and then evaluate the pros and cons. Yugoslavia did remain in peace for nearly 50 years but this peace was instituted by a dictator with secret police and restricted liberty (was better than other communist countries but still inferior to the West as far as individual freedoms were concerned.) The cons are all but apparent as two Yugoslav experiments resulted in the bloody deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and the displacement of many more. In terms of final evaluation, it seems painstakingly clear that more people suffered as a result of the country that probably never should have been.
I agree with most of what you wrote here but how is it that the 'economy was not regulated properly?' If anything, Yugoslavia's financial slump ( 3 depressions, 2 Western bailouts, the last one did the country in) was the result of too much central control on the economy and not enough free market practice. I do give Yugoslavia some credit , especially those practical economists from Croatia and Slovenia, that knew the Soviet system didn't work well, as it did perform better than some of its communist cousins ( more pro-market reform) but the prosperity was on borrowed time and money and eventually would come to collection day.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Apr 22, 2008 8:36:10 GMT -5
Ever heard of Goli Otok? Dapcevic, Dijak, Venko Markovski, Dragoljub Micunovic, Dobroslav Paraga, Pavao Vuk-Pavlovic, Nikola Kljusev spent time there. These are only the famous ones, there were countless others who were sent to the Goli Otok concentration camp or shot and buried by Tito's goons. You question government bureaucracy, you question Tito or you question Marxism and end up in Goli Otok or six feet under. So things were affordable... did your parents own any land? No because no one was allowed to own land, everyone payed rent to the government and that was one of the ways the government kept things at an affordable level. Another way was having a massive deficit and having a large dept that Tito wasn't interested in paying off. Tito's mismanagement of the economy was one of the reasons Yugoslavia fell apart the way it did. It could not sustain itself economically. YU wasnt like russia where people couldnt express their selfs or travel to other countrys, i dont know why some people get that feeling... Russia is an incredibly free country compared to communist Yugoslavia so I have no idea why you are comparing the two. No my father didnt own any land but hes father did and still ownes it.... Dont know where u get the fact that u couldnt own anything... Try owning something down there now in the so called "free countrys" with their sallurys pa mi javi
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 22, 2008 9:30:36 GMT -5
No my father didnt own any land but hes father did and still ownes it.... You could not buy apartments. That is what I should have wrote down and that is what I meant. Dont know where u get the fact that u couldnt own anything... I only stated land. I never stated that you couldn’t own anything. Try owning something down there now in the so called "free countrys" with their sallurys pa mi javi Which free countries are you talking about?
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Apr 22, 2008 11:26:03 GMT -5
No my father didnt own any land but hes father did and still ownes it.... You could not buy apartments. That is what I should have wrote down and that is what I meant. I only stated land. I never stated that you couldn’t own anything. Try owning something down there now in the so called "free countrys" with their sallurys pa mi javi Which free countries are you talking about? Come on man u are trying ur best to talks shit about juga.. ofcourse there were ALOT of things that could be better, but u cant say that the current situation is better than the past one.. Offcourse i like the independent countrys to get better, i didnt say it will never be better than it was but its definitly not better now than before..
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 22, 2008 11:43:31 GMT -5
Come on man u are trying ur best to talks s**t about juga.. ofcourse there were ALOT of things that could be better, but u cant say that the current situation is better than the past one.. Offcourse i like the independent countrys to get better, i didnt say it will never be better than it was but its definitly not better now than before.. What did you like best about communist Yugoslavia? Was it the political oppression? Was it the corruption? Whatever you think, understand that however great communist Yugoslavia was, it couldn't sustain itself and Tito's policies led to the economic (and political) downfall of Yugoslavia. I am not talking bad about Yugoslavia. I am talking about the communist mismanagement of the economy.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Apr 22, 2008 12:05:04 GMT -5
Come on man u are trying ur best to talks s**t about juga.. ofcourse there were ALOT of things that could be better, but u cant say that the current situation is better than the past one.. Offcourse i like the independent countrys to get better, i didnt say it will never be better than it was but its definitly not better now than before.. What did you like best about communist Yugoslavia? Was it the political oppression? Was it the corruption? Whatever you think, understand that however great communist Yugoslavia was, it couldn't sustain itself and Tito's policies led to the economic (and political) downfall of Yugoslavia. I am not talking bad about Yugoslavia. I am talking about the communist mismanagement of the economy. ,,,, They had to adjust to the west but failed.... Yes they did fail... i admit that.The Communism i dont comment so much because i dont know much about it, i only comment the life we had who lived there... And it was good... The best solution i think had to be that they slowly had to adjust to west, but instead the country ended in Civil war wich i think everyone can agree on that it was bad... If they had broken up in a civil manner every country for it self i can guarantee YU the nostalgic feelings wouldnt be so big as they are today with many people... i mean as independent countrys we could still be brothers but we could prosper in our own way...
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Post by fannoli on Apr 22, 2008 12:27:30 GMT -5
statebriga is that Yasser Arafat with Tito?
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 22, 2008 12:33:33 GMT -5
,,,, They had to adjust to the west but failed.... Yes they did fail... i admit that.The Communism i dont comment so much because i dont know much about it, i only comment the life we had who lived there... And it was good... The best solution i think had to be that they slowly had to adjust to west, but instead the country ended in Civil war wich i think everyone can agree on that it was bad... If they had broken up in a civil manner every country for it self i can guarantee YU the nostalgic feelings wouldnt be so big as they are today with many people... i mean as independent countrys we could still be brothers but we could prosper in our own way... If "the west" is the EU then all the Yugoslav countries should stay clear of "the west".
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