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Post by fannoli on Apr 22, 2008 12:39:33 GMT -5
Deucan you are being stubborn not to see the point statebriga is making.
He is saying a better transition to democracy could have been for Yugoslavia despite the communist mismanagement of the economy. And looking "west" is not necessarily a bad thing despite the rhetoric some of the serbian media says today about it. Thats a very good point. Because after Tito's death, no leader had the charismatic and the proffesional background to rule a country and keep it united like he did. Who would've known that few years later all hell would break loose?
Thirdly the best example of how a transition from communism to democracy could be is China. Every Eastern European country failed to follow China's example. Every communist Eastern European country went from a communist system to democracy in a matter of a day. That was a terrible mistake.
China on the other hand still kept a communist political elite and only adjusted the economy from a planned one to a free-market. Thats what we should have done....
And Yugoslavia's job to be adjusted to the West was much easier than other Soviet Block countries. You were already half-integrated with the West. You could travel easy. You had more contact with the West. It was us that didn't have these luxuries.
Had it not been for the wars, and foolish decision-making, Yugoslavia would've been in EU today with a very high gdp per capita(at least more than 20 000 average). Today only Slovenia and to a certain extent Croatia got out with few scratches. The rest of YU is economically and politically unstable.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Apr 22, 2008 12:53:57 GMT -5
Deucan you are being stubborn not to see the point statebriga is making. He is saying a better transition to democracy could have been for Yugoslavia despite the communist mismanagement of the economy. And looking "west" is not necessarily a bad thing despite the rhetoric some of the serbian media says today about it. Thats a very good point. Because after Tito's death, no leader had the charismatic and the proffesional background to rule a country and keep it united like he did. Who would've known that few years later all hell would break loose? Thirdly the best example of how a transition from communism to democracy could be is China. Every Eastern European country failed to follow China's example. Every communist Eastern European country went from a communist system to democracy in a matter of a day. That was a terrible mistake. China on the other hand still kept a communist political elite and only adjusted the economy from a planned one to a free-market. Thats what we should have done.... And Yugoslavia's job to be adjusted to the West was much easier than other Soviet Block countries. You were already half-integrated with the West. You could travel easy. You had more contact with the West. It was us that didn't have these luxuries. Had it not been for the wars, and foolish decision-making, Yugoslavia would've been in EU today with a very high gdp per capita(at least more than 20 000 average). Today only Slovenia and to a certain extent Croatia got out with few scratches. The rest of YU is economically and politically unstable. Exaclty what i was saying!!! Sry for my English its my third language
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 22, 2008 12:59:38 GMT -5
And looking "west" is not necessarily a bad thing despite the rhetoric some of the serbian media says today about it. Thats a very good point. Yeah, its all propaganda. That's why no one is able to tell me why the EU is a good thing. So tell me why joining the EU is a good thing. He is saying a better transition to democracy could have been for Yugoslavia despite the communist mismanagement of the economy. Because after Tito's death, no leader had the charismatic and the proffesional background to rule a country and keep it united like he did. Who would've known that few years later all hell would break loose? It wasn't his charisma or his "professional background", it was his constant purges. And it is his fault that Yugoslavia fell apart the way it did. Had he not been in power and his policies not been in place then Yugoslavia might have had a "better transition" then it did.
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Post by fannoli on Apr 22, 2008 13:17:35 GMT -5
Deucan, it is not EU which is a good thing. Its free trade and movement of people that is a good thing. You may dissagree with EU but you cannot agree that being isolated will make you economically better off?
Second the purges are part of any communist system. How else will you keep the masses united and together if not by a little force. Tito wasn't so bad of a leader and he didn't purge more than any other communist leader such as Stalin, Hoxha, Caucescu and more? All you had to do was mind your own business and not talk against the system. Thats not very hard job if you want to enjoy a nice life is it?
Plus my father used to tell me that Yugoslavian radio and television were shown in Albania as well. They were the only ones that used to show singers dancing and also had their own porn station. What other communist country even allowed singers to dance, let alone have porn stations during that time? Showing western dancing moves while singing was "capitalistic" and forbidden.
You didn't have it bad in Yugoslavia, it was just badly politically mismanaged after Tito died and i can show you a few cases why it was politically mismanaged especially the bad negotiations between parties.
It wasnt hard to turn Yugoslavia from communist to a social democracy. None at all...
You will ask: you are albanian you are better off now that yugoslavia is dead since kosovo broke away. I will say to you that no matter what i am humanist first and for all. I didnt like the way many people died after the conflict. Serbian heads being cuttoff by mujahedeens muslims in Bosnia. Albanian women and children being killed in Kosovo by state paramilitaries....
Thats why i think Yugoslavia was a good thing for the citizens who lived there. Because after its disintegration people resorted back to their animalistic nature.
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 22, 2008 13:34:38 GMT -5
Deucan, it is not EU which is a good thing. Its free trade and movement of people that is a good thing. Not really. Free trade means not being able to dictate the price of goods and if food prices in Germany or France raise then expect repercussions on your tiny nation. As for the having open immigration/emigration, it is bad because of brain drains and know that the Balkan countries will get all the non-European trash that the other EU members don't want to take in. If you want all the skilled people to leave you country and replace them with criminals and extremists then I suggest you rethink your priorities. You may dissagree with EU but you cannot agree that being isolated will make you economically better off? Is guess Switzerland and Norway are "isolated" as both are not in the EU or trying to get in. Second the purges are part of any communist system. How else will you keep the masses united and together if not by a little force. Tito wasn't so bad of a leader and he didn't purge more than any other communist leader such as Stalin, Hoxha, Caucescu and more? All you had to do was mind your own business and not talk against the system. Thats not very hard job if you want to enjoy a nice life is it? Tito was as bad as Hoxha and Ceausescu. He certainly was as incompetent. If you want to feel nostalgic over a government that sends you to a concentration camp for being related to someone who might have questioned the government then be my guest. Plus my father used to tell me that Yugoslavian radio and television were shown in Albania as well. They were the only ones that used to show singers dancing and also had their own porn station. What other communist country even allowed singers to dance, let alone have porn stations during that time? Showing western dancing moves while singing was "capitalistic" and forbidden. Panem et circenses.
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Post by fannoli on Apr 22, 2008 13:48:05 GMT -5
Look at things in context. In no way i'm saying being under communist system is better than under democracy. I would rather live in a law-abiding liberal country that i can express myself freely without having to worry about anything. But you cannot deny the many good things Yugoslavia brought such as better minority rights & social unity along with its bad things, political opression. Let's give credit where due.
And maybe you are right. maybe it is for the better that everybody is going their seperate ways. i just think that would've been achieved in a more peaceful way.
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Post by zgembo on Apr 22, 2008 13:54:55 GMT -5
We had no porn stations or channels... after midnight (while kids were asleep) the regular channels may have shown some soft-core porn, but that's about it
The reason you had television and radio shown in Albania is because Albanian culture was allowed to flourish more in Yugoslavia than it was in Albania. That kind of political tolerance and encouragement came back to bite us in the ass.
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 22, 2008 13:58:55 GMT -5
Look at things in context. In no way i'm saying being under communist system is better than under democracy. I would rather live in a law-abiding liberal country that i can express myself freely without having to worry about anything. But you cannot deny the many good things Yugoslavia brought such as better minority rights & social unity along with its bad things, political opression. Serbia has a great minority rights without the Serbian government resorting to throwing people in prison or graves. Let's give credit where due. The communists gave nothing but dept, a poor work ethic and massive political oppression based on one man's paranoia. And maybe you are right. maybe it is for the better that everybody is going their seperate ways. i just think that would've been achieved in a more peaceful way. I never said the end of Yugoslavia was a good thing. I am against the corrupt communist regime that Yugoslavia had which led to its downfall. I am not against Yugoslavia or the idea of Yugoslavia.
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Post by fannoli on Apr 22, 2008 14:21:30 GMT -5
Mapko, still it showing porn was very liberal by communist standards. Thats the point i was trying to make.
Albanian culture was extremely promoted by Hoxha. Thousands of schools were built by him. No matter how schizophrenic he was.
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