MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 15, 2008 11:48:59 GMT -5
^ Ma znam, al' eto, jebiga. Svi misle da su u pravu, al' u stvarnosti nemaju pojma. Ako te neko pogleda cudno zbog takvih stvarcica, onda bih trebali imati Srpsko-Hrvatski Rijecnik.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Apr 15, 2008 11:59:27 GMT -5
^ Ma znam, al' eto, jebiga. Svi misle da su u pravu, al' u stvarnosti nemaju pojma. Ako te neko pogleda cudno zbog takvih stvarcica, onda bih trebali imati Srpsko-Hrvatski Rijecnik. Ma ne bi oni mene gledali cudno sto sto ne znaju sta je to kafa nego sto znaju kako Srbi kazu kava.
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Apr 15, 2008 12:30:39 GMT -5
^ E pa to je to.
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Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
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Post by Fender on Apr 16, 2008 1:28:50 GMT -5
Off topic posts and replies have now been deleted.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Apr 16, 2008 8:31:01 GMT -5
So, basically my post has been deleted. Nice Job Fender!
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stickinthemud
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Economist, Historian, Philosopher
Posts: 131
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Post by stickinthemud on Apr 16, 2008 13:23:49 GMT -5
^ The difference between GNP and GDP can only be a minor influence, and there is nothing to suggest more foreign workers came from Croatia than Serbia (in fact, the opposite could be true considering Serbia was poorer). You are clutching at straws. What's reprehensible in taking pride of this date is not the independence, but how it was achieved. You were granted a PUPPET STATE, thus not even a fully independent entity, by the most despicable dictator in the history of mankind. You didn't struggle to achieve it. It was annoited to you, or rather to a fascist Croat living in Italy, following the conquest and defeat of Yugoslavia. Taking pride in an independence achieved in that manner is pathetic and illustrative of lack of anything else to be proud about in history. I believe more Croats traveled abroad for work due to the unfavorable conditions in their native country. However, there are large concentrations of both Croats and Serbs all over the world and they tend to immigrate to generally the same areas. Kinda ironic if so much hatred is supposed to exist between these divided twin brothers How common is it for Croat and Serb communities abroad to just be a stone throw away from each other or , in fact , neighbors on the same block? ;D Croatia was a puppet state either way. Trapped in the in the Serbian Monarchy would eventually lead to a war in Yugoslavia at one time or another. The Croats, Slovenes, and Bosnian Muslims were thrown into that situation as being spoils of war for the allied Serbian monarchy after that $hit treaty of Versailles. It didn't even turn out as Serbia hoped with all the division in the country. Croats, much like Germans, welcomed the 'liberation' of the Nazis like the Slovenes, Austrians, Hungarians, and other peoples that were shafted by the Treaty of Versailles. Certainly not all the Croats knew in 1941 that atrocities would follow these despotic governments in the following four years. Just as soon as the Italians and Germans divided administration of the first former Yugoslavia , Croats , Serbs, Bosniaks, Slovenes, etc , all fractionated into groups that fought others of their 'own kind' even. Ultimately the people of the region were screwed over like they were after the first World War. Stuck between two juggernauts of tyranny, Fascism and Communism , any hope of fair consideration of these peoples was eliminated with Operation Keelhaul after the war and only set up the situation for another war to follow.
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Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
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Post by Fender on Apr 17, 2008 10:20:24 GMT -5
So, basically my post has been deleted. Nice Job Fender! If your reply was to an off topic remark, then yes. Don't feed the troll next time.
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Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
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Post by Fender on Apr 17, 2008 10:30:20 GMT -5
Croatia entered the first Yugoslavia willingly. They were not a prize in any spoils of war.
Macek who was the leader of the Croatian Peasents Party, being the largest party in Croatia at the time, refused to side with Hitler. Pavelic who had at best maybe 20% support, became the proxy government by default. So your unfounded alegations that Croatia welcomed the Nazis as liberators, does not hold water.
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stickinthemud
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Economist, Historian, Philosopher
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Post by stickinthemud on Apr 17, 2008 13:29:49 GMT -5
Croatia entered the first Yugoslavia willingly. They were not a prize in any spoils of war. Macek who was the leader of the Croatian Peasents Party, being the largest party in Croatia at the time, refused to side with Hitler. Pavelic who had at best maybe 20% support, became the proxy government by default. So your unfounded alegations that Croatia welcomed the Nazis as liberators, does not hold water. I'd double check your history. It doesn't follow that if the Croat people ( or Bosniaks, Slovenes) wanted to 'willingly' submit to the Serbian crown that mass demonstration of dissatisfaction with the situation would arise from these groups. I wouldn't be fooled into thinking that the negotiators on the Croatian side ( what few there were) were actually representative of the people in general. The CPP did end up being the most popular opposition party precisely because of their stance of dissatisfaction with the arrangement. The Yugoslavian minded Croats were always in disfavor with the people and the fact that the CPP gained so much support demonstrates that. Its like saying all the German people what were ripped apart after WW1 truly favored the German politicians that agreed to the Treaty of Versailles( they really had no choice). I believe the Croatian and Slovenian representatives knew that the same fate awaited their people as the Germans had they not complied with Serbian hegemony. Surely much more vast parts of Croatia and Slovenia would have been partitioned to Italy. Macek had enough knowledge to know that the Axis would loose in the long run once the United States initiate itself into the war like what happened in WW1 and the Croats ( and Slovenes) after WW2 would be subject to much of the unfair conditions as presented to them with the Treaty of Versailles for being on the other side. Many Croatian civilians welcomed the Italian-German controlled Ustasha government because at the time anything seemed better than the prior situation even though the people didn't exactly agree soup and nuts with the Ustasha ideology as a whole. Even many Bosnian Muslims agreed to an uncertain future under Italian/German Ustasha control rather than the prior government because the situation in the prior government was so unfavorable. Much of the mainstream Serbian leadership fell out of favor with the Nazis ( the Nazis instead chose Croatian and Slovenian nationalism as greater allies) although they did try to appeal to them prior to the invasion to support the current Serbian rule. From the Serbian POV the allied failure in Poland and the weak positions of Britain and especially France ( and Soviet pact with Hitler 1939) the situation looked grim for any meaningful Serbian resistance. The Serbian government even tried appeasing the Germans by handing over the Jews of Serbia. Naturally Serbia had every interest in maintaining the rewards of the Treaty of Versailles and renegade Serbs did resist bravely against the Nazi invasion in an act to block access to Greece and by that time received a guarantee of British support which never came in the form of military logistics. The geopolitical situation facing the peoples of the first Yugoslavia lead to a completely logical sequence of alliances.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Apr 17, 2008 17:05:11 GMT -5
The people of Croatia did not ask to join Serbia in 1918. The elected representatives of the Croatian people voted for a "Neutral and Peasant Republic of Croatia" in 1918.
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