|
Post by tito on Oct 14, 2008 5:56:25 GMT -5
Pljevlja - Potpredsjednik SNS Novica Staniæ indirektno je sinoæ najavio da bi Pljevlja mogla izaæi iz sastava Crne Gore ukoliko crnogorska Vlada ne povuèe odluku o priznanju nezavisnosti Kosova. Na protestu na trgu partijarha Varnave on je poruèio da æe, ukoliko Vlada ne opozove odluku “lokalni parlament u Pljevljima je proglasiti ništavnom, a Pljevlja okrenuti leða Crnoj Gori”. “Pljevlja su tek 1913. ušla u sastav Crne Gore... Neæe mnogo proteæi vode Tarom i Moraèom, a još manje Æehotinom, a Pljevljaci æe okrenuti leða Crnoj Gori jer Pljevlja neæe da slijede izdaju aktuelnog režima Crne Gore”, rekao je Staniæ. G.M. www.vijesti.cg.yu/index.php?id=284006
|
|
|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Oct 14, 2008 7:55:14 GMT -5
re posting from another forum as I see it relevant and educational.It will go over just as it did with K-Serbs, give them a week. Really, Serbs (aka real or actual Montenegrins) and proserb Montenegrins are by far the single largest group in Montenegro being around 45% according to the past independence referendum and this is followed by so called ethnic 'Montenegrins' which are 1/4 of the population (25%) and the rest are 'Bosniaks' (Montenegrin Muslims) at around 15%, Albanians at around 8% and rest at around 7%. The ethic distribution numbers situation is reminiscent of Bosnia in a sense that there is no clear majority and that the largest group is around 40 something percent followed by second largest being around 30%. This is nothing like Kosovo or its Serbs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro#DemographicsStats (deflate Montenegrin numbers and add some to Serbs and Bosniaks and you get a more realistic picture).
|
|
|
Post by tito on Oct 14, 2008 8:12:56 GMT -5
This ethnic map of Montenegro is from 1981. I believe most people who during Milosevic’s regime where more or less forced to claim to be “serbs” have today returned to their Montenegrin roots and that Montenegro’s independence will result in the re-establishment of Montenegrin ethnicity in most of these areas that where temporarily converted into “ethnic serb” areas during Milosevics regime.
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Oct 14, 2008 9:48:18 GMT -5
Bulls**t. In the 1991 cenus, when Milosevic had unilaterla support from Djukanovic, Montenegrins: :Montenegrins: 380,467 (61.86%) :Muslims: 89,614 (14.57%) :Serbs: 57,453 (9.34%) :Albanians: 40,415 (6.57%) :Yugoslavs: 26,159 (4.25%) :Croats: 6,244 (1.02%) :Roma: 3,282 (0.53%) :Macedonian: 1,072 (0.17%) :Slovenians: 369 (0.06%) :Hungarians: 205 (0.03%) :Germans: 124 (0.02%) :Russians: 118 (0.02%) :Italians: 58 (0.01%) ther: 437 (0.07%) :No response: 1,944 (0.32%) :Regional affiliation: 998 (0.16%) :Unknown: 6,076 (0.99%)
Clearly if anything caused a change in demographics, it isn't Milosevic as Pavelic above claims. But it is the pro-independence attitude of the Montenegrin authorities and idiotic opportunist Djukljanists who peedle the historical revisionism Pavelic above loves.
|
|
SuperAlbanian
Amicus
King of Gays
20%
CANARIS IS THE REAL KING OF GAYS! OH WAIT! HES THE QUEEN OF GAYS!!!!
Posts: 1,283
|
Post by SuperAlbanian on Oct 14, 2008 13:24:52 GMT -5
re posting from another forum as I see it relevant and educational.It will go over just as it did with K-Serbs, give them a week. Really, Serbs (aka real or actual Montenegrins) and proserb Montenegrins are by far the single largest group in Montenegro being around 45% according to the past independence referendum and this is followed by so called ethnic 'Montenegrins' which are 1/4 of the population (25%) and the rest are 'Bosniaks' (Montenegrin Muslims) at around 15%, Albanians at around 8% and rest at around 7%. The ethic distribution numbers situation is reminiscent of Bosnia in a sense that there is no clear majority and that the largest group is around 40 something percent followed by second largest being around 30%. This is nothing like Kosovo or its Serbs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro#DemographicsStats (deflate Montenegrin numbers and add some to Serbs and Bosniaks and you get a more realistic picture). Sorry to have to challange your superior inteligence there Aadmin but may I ask how is Montenegro today an independant state... Albanians? Maybe not... This was denied by the "real Montenegrins" themselves. A "real" Montenegrin wants to intergrate with EU rather than Serbia... This is why they voted pro referendum for Independence.
|
|
|
Post by tito on Oct 14, 2008 13:40:01 GMT -5
Clearly if anything caused a change in demographics, it isn't Milosevic 1981:Montenegrins 68.54% Serbs 3.32% 1991:Montenegrins 61.86% Serbs 9.34% 2003:Montenegrins 43.16% Serbs 31.99%
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Oct 14, 2008 14:34:45 GMT -5
re posting from another forum as I see it relevant and educational.It will go over just as it did with K-Serbs, give them a week. Really, Serbs (aka real or actual Montenegrins) and proserb Montenegrins are by far the single largest group in Montenegro being around 45% according to the past independence referendum and this is followed by so called ethnic 'Montenegrins' which are 1/4 of the population (25%) and the rest are 'Bosniaks' (Montenegrin Muslims) at around 15%, Albanians at around 8% and rest at around 7%. The ethic distribution numbers situation is reminiscent of Bosnia in a sense that there is no clear majority and that the largest group is around 40 something percent followed by second largest being around 30%. This is nothing like Kosovo or its Serbs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro#DemographicsStats (deflate Montenegrin numbers and add some to Serbs and Bosniaks and you get a more realistic picture). Sorry to have to challange your superior inteligence there Aadmin but may I ask how is Montenegro today an independant state... Albanians? Maybe not... This was denied by the "real Montenegrins" themselves. A "real" Montenegrin wants to intergrate with EU rather than Serbia... This is why they voted pro referendum for Independence. Albanians, specifically Albanian diasproa with Montenegrin citizenship, were the deciding factor. Real Montenegrins on the oter hand are pro-Serb. Hence what he meant by "real Montenegrins." The "real Montenegrins" are the high landers, the highlanders declare themselves Serb and voted for union. Anyways, this isn't a topic about the election reuslts. The simple fact is Montenegrins lead pro-Serb politics and at times lead anti-Serb politics when it serves their interests -- a bigger reason for why the no vote won was Serbia is unstable, Montenegro wanted to build up tourism, as soon as it cut it's self of from Serbia's instability the land prices went up and they sold 20% of all property in the country to the Russians. It served them economically to severe the union, if the housing bubble bursts or there is another tourist seasons with a 30%+ drop in visitor numbers one can easily see Montenegrins becoming pro-Serb.
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Oct 14, 2008 14:36:13 GMT -5
Clearly if anything caused a change in demographics, it isn't Milosevic 1981:Montenegrins 68.54% Serbs 3.32% 1991:Montenegrins 61.86% Serbs 9.34% 2003:Montenegrins 43.16% Serbs 31.99% Clealry, Pavelic purposely chooses to ignore history. Milosevic came to power in 1989 and at that times he had near 100% support among the Montenegrin population. Had he actually lead a policy of "serbianizing" as Pavelic implies, then the 1991 census would not have had 61% declare themselves as Montenegrins.
|
|
SuperAlbanian
Amicus
King of Gays
20%
CANARIS IS THE REAL KING OF GAYS! OH WAIT! HES THE QUEEN OF GAYS!!!!
Posts: 1,283
|
Post by SuperAlbanian on Oct 14, 2008 15:29:53 GMT -5
OK Rado, I made a thread about " Real Montenegrns" and my expirience when I was in Montenegro... Everything what Serbs claim to me seemed completely the opposite. I know how Montenegrins feel about Serbs... I don't need to be lectured. Shame Vinjak had to go and delete it because he could not stand the truth coming from an Albanian.
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Oct 14, 2008 16:14:06 GMT -5
OK Rado, I made a thread about " Real Montenegrns" and my expirience when I was in Montenegro... Everything what Serbs claim to me seemed completely the opposite. I know how Montenegrins feel about Serbs... I don't need to be lectured. Shame Vinjak had to go and delete it because he could not stand the truth coming from an Albanian. Yes, you went to Cetinje and Ulcinj and built your assumptions on a place with a huge inferiority complex [they blame Serbs for the fact that they are no longer a place of any importance] and a place inhabited by Albanians. The simple fact that 85% of the population in polls oppose independence -- even RTCG state tv carried this -- means that your claims are hardly true. Montenegro is Serb, no one can change that.
|
|
SuperAlbanian
Amicus
King of Gays
20%
CANARIS IS THE REAL KING OF GAYS! OH WAIT! HES THE QUEEN OF GAYS!!!!
Posts: 1,283
|
Post by SuperAlbanian on Oct 14, 2008 16:21:29 GMT -5
Try telling that to a Montenegrin... They don't even like to mention their language is Serbian... I did not talk to any Albs as a matter of fact but to "real" Montenegrins! Don't worry I know... As for RTCG.... These are the same guys who thanked Albs for their pro independence vote.
|
|
|
Post by Sh1 Shonić on Oct 14, 2008 16:25:48 GMT -5
Try telling that to a Montenegrin... They don't even like to mention their language is Serbian... I did not talk to any Albs as a matter of fact but to "real" Montenegrins! Don't worry I know... As for RTCG.... These are the same guys who thanked Albs for their pro independence vote.
|
|
|
Post by Sh1 Shonić on Oct 14, 2008 16:26:13 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Oct 14, 2008 16:29:49 GMT -5
Try telling that to a Montenegrin... They don't even like to mention their language is Serbian... I did not talk to any Albs as a matter of fact but to "real" Montenegrins! Don't worry I know... As for RTCG.... These are the same guys who thanked Albs for their pro independence vote. As for RTCG, these are the guys who in this case couldn't make bs claims about expressing the will of the Montenegrin people. Yet the last census indicates the exact opposite: 156,374 people who declared themselves "Montenegrin" and not Serbia declared to speak Serbian. 106,214 "Montenegrins" claimed to speak this "Montenegrin" language you speak off. Not only that but one of the most pro-independence politicians in Montenegro, Filip Vujanovic, proposed the constiution refer to the language as Montenegrin Serbian (crnogorsko-srpski jezik or srpsko-crnogorski jezik). 64% of the overall population claimed to speak Serbian vs. 22% for Montenegrin. Next census, the number of Montenegrin speakers will be lower.
|
|
SuperAlbanian
Amicus
King of Gays
20%
CANARIS IS THE REAL KING OF GAYS! OH WAIT! HES THE QUEEN OF GAYS!!!!
Posts: 1,283
|
Post by SuperAlbanian on Oct 14, 2008 16:47:02 GMT -5
OK fine, I strongly disagree with you but still, I respect your opinion - Unlike Vinjak. All polls in some ways will be baised. We all know that. What goovernmental body or organisation overlooked their poll and where did they take the polls? In the heart of Montenegro or the parts boardering Serbia? These are the questions we have to ask ourselves before we rely our lives in other peoples "polls".
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Oct 14, 2008 16:52:56 GMT -5
OK fine, I strongly disagree with you but still, I respect your opinion - Unlike Vinjak. All polls in some ways will be baised. We all know that. What goovernmental body or organisation overlooked their poll and where did they take the polls? In the heart of Montenegro or the parts boardering Serbia? These are the questions we have to ask ourselves before we rely our lives in other peoples "polls". A census counts all people in the country and as I said the census showed 64% vs. 22% called their language Serbian vs. Montenegrin and the number of self-described Montenegrins saying their mother tongue is Serbia exceeds those saying "Montenegrin."
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Oct 15, 2008 0:18:52 GMT -5
A census is a complete survey, unlike a poll which is partial.
Keep in mind also what kind of Montenegrin would talk to an Albanian and actually open up about political/ethnic issues.
|
|
SuperAlbanian
Amicus
King of Gays
20%
CANARIS IS THE REAL KING OF GAYS! OH WAIT! HES THE QUEEN OF GAYS!!!!
Posts: 1,283
|
Post by SuperAlbanian on Oct 15, 2008 4:53:54 GMT -5
Well Mapko, earlier on you guys were telling me Montenegrins are all Srbs. I think "Kosovars" as some people like to call us and Albanians in Albania and Montenegrins with Serbs are actually a very different matter. You ask any Kosovo Albanian in the street what language he speaks I will guarantee you 100% he or she will tell you she speaks Albanian. That is the main difference. There is a seperation because I do believe in Albanian theory that Montenegrins are a product of half Albanian genes and half Serbian. In the end, surerly a 7 % minority cannot make a difference in a referendum.... The Montenegrin majority chunk was the deciding factor in my view. It would be a little bit like holding a referendum in Kosovo to join Albania and people that did NOT want to join Albania blaming Serbian and other minority votes for the referendum being passed.
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Oct 15, 2008 9:49:41 GMT -5
Well Mapko, earlier on you guys were telling me Montenegrins are all Srbs. I think "Kosovars" as some people like to call us and Albanians in Albania and Montenegrins with Serbs are actually a very different matter. You ask any Kosovo Albanian in the street what language he speaks I will guarantee you 100% he or she will tell you she speaks Albanian. That is the main difference. There is a seperation because I do believe in Albanian theory that Montenegrins are a product of half Albanian genes and half Serbian. In the end, surerly a 7 % minority cannot make a difference in a referendum.... The Montenegrin majority chunk was the deciding factor in my view. It would be a little bit like holding a referendum in Kosovo to join Albania and people that did NOT want to join Albania blaming Serbian and other minority votes for the referendum being passed. Again, this article is not about a referendum. Now since you are making about the referendum it shows you are an idiot since it is blatantly clear that the referendum did not meet democratic standards and violated the Montenegrin constitution: - 1. The Montenegrin Constitution specifies only residents can vote. Yet, the 16,000 or so diaspora votes (around 3% of the people who voted in the referendum) were given to people who were not residents anbd thus should have been ineligible to vote (now before you start crying thats propaganda- www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/22/news/balkans.php). Not only that but most of the diaspora was Albanian (http://www.diaspora.cg.yu/home.php/interface/home.php?akcija=viewsingle&sta=pisma&id=128). More then 250,000 Montenegrins in Serbia and over 150,000 in Western Europe could not vote, I wonder why -- because they would have voted for independence [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4994212.stm, fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/montenegro-ramming-speed/, www.western-balkans.info/htmls/page.php?category=353&id=1000, digital.library.unt.edu/govdocs/crs/permalink/meta-crs-8320:1]- 2. None of the 30,000 refugees and IDP in Montenegro had the right to vote (http://www.birn.eu.com/en/1/170/2806/?tpid=7), despite meeting the residency requirements. - 3. There was a scanadal of ID cards being given to non-residents to enable them to vote depsite them not meeting residency requirements (http://www.western-balkans.info/htmls/page.php?category=353&id=1000) - 4. The prison population, around 1% of the voters in the referenudm, were promsied early release if they voted for independence. (One case is particularly notable: the rushed Law on Amnesty that reduced all but the most serious prison sentences by 25 percent in advance of September parliamentary elections and, according to some, because of a prereferendum promise made to prisoners to get them to vote "yes."- www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=47&nit=431&year=2007)- 5. Many government employees were threatened with firings if thye did not vote for indpendence. Thus, clearly the notion of a secret ballot was violated. This is especially bad when one considers that bys ome estimates 30% of all employed in Montenegro are public service employees. - 6. The Montenegrin government did not allow some 10,000 students from Beograd to vote despite the fact that they met residency requirement -- they were in Serbia only because of education reasons. - 7. The Montenegrin governments owned airline cancelled 34 flights from Serbia the day off the indepnedence to block even more university sutudents from showing up to vote. - 8. The government in the days before the referendum engage din propaganda by making various promises regarding infrastructure -- since then nothing they promised has been achieved. ^ Clearly, the votes of minorities who were all pro-independence and made 25% of the vote, and manipualtion -- i.e. diaspora and residency problems, affected the vote. If the IDPs, refugees, university students had the right to vote as entitled to by residency the no vote would ahve won. One can say the same if the diaspora's were treating equally.
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Oct 15, 2008 10:11:45 GMT -5
Well Mapko, earlier on you guys were telling me Montenegrins are all Srbs. I think "Kosovars" as some people like to call us and Albanians in Albania and Montenegrins with Serbs are actually a very different matter. You ask any Kosovo Albanian in the street what language he speaks I will guarantee you 100% he or she will tell you she speaks Albanian. That is the main difference. There is a seperation because I do believe in Albanian theory that Montenegrins are a product of half Albanian genes and half Serbian. In the end, surerly a 7 % minority cannot make a difference in a referendum.... The Montenegrin majority chunk was the deciding factor in my view. It would be a little bit like holding a referendum in Kosovo to join Albania and people that did NOT want to join Albania blaming Serbian and other minority votes for the referendum being passed. There is a difference, that's for sure. But the difference is a result of history, not some genes. Montenegro has a history of statehood, one which developed a separate national consciousness over time. This is not present among all Montenegrins, but it is among some. It is a political persuasion that cuts across family lines (there are literally brother who declare themselves differently ethnically). Kosovo Albanians never had a history of statehood, they never were able to develop that separate national consciousness. In fact, they lived under the rule of others which made them more motivated to keep their Albanian identity. You can compare them to Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina in that regard (and the difference between Montenegrins and Serbs in Serbia is as pronounced as the difference between them and Bosnian Serbs). You would have to imagine Kosovo being a country for hundreds of years in some shape and form (being actually older than Albania itself) and then merging into Albania and being ruled by Tirana. That's the situation Montenegro found itself in. I say this has nothing to do about some Serbo-Albanian genetic makeup of Albanians. Montenegrins are no different than Herzegovinians, for example, genetically, linguistically and culturally. There is a different mentality among SOME Montenegrins because of that tradition of statehood. There is pride and national consciousness that developed from that.
|
|