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Post by kapetan on Nov 21, 2008 23:32:49 GMT -5
Bosnjaci zive izmedju Drine, Vrbasa, Save, Dalmacije i Huma(Hercegovina) Ima ih oko 450 000 a pripadnici su Islamske vjere, Katolici ili Pravoslavni
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Post by tito on Nov 22, 2008 0:41:41 GMT -5
Ma jok nisu oni instrument Beograda/Zagreba i velikosrpskog/hrvatskog fasizma.
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Post by zgembo on Nov 22, 2008 3:20:07 GMT -5
Yeah, but then... bosnjaci = bosanci
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Post by kapetan on Nov 22, 2008 5:18:56 GMT -5
What are you trying to say, I'm not following? Yes all Bosnians were Bosniaks in the national sense. Bosnjaci.
As this and countless other documents have stated. I'm sure someone will again find some idiotic excuse and explanation arguing against even their own Serbian documents, because their world will crash if they know their Bosnian Serb/Croat identity is based on their religion in the time when nationalism exploded and nothing else. Thanks to the pressure and influence of Bosnia's neighbors and nations like Russia.
And just to be clear this has NOTHING to do with who was in Bosnia a 1200 years ago or anything like that so lets not even get into ancient tribal labels and just stick to this Serbian document.
This is simply what people called themsevles in the national sense and it is clearly Bosniak. This is reality. No it won't make any of you just switch and leave your Serbdom behind today, but it needs to be acknowledged and laid to REST.
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Post by fazlinho on Nov 22, 2008 5:22:36 GMT -5
If it was case, they'd say Serbs, Croats and "muslims" live there, they wouldn't make a distinction between Bosniaks as a geographical term and Serbs as a ethnic one.
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Post by zgembo on Nov 22, 2008 13:11:31 GMT -5
They are regional terms nevertheless.... Bosnjaci i Srbi.... or according to todays standards, Bosanci and Srbijanci
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Post by kapetan on Nov 22, 2008 15:56:06 GMT -5
wtf.....
unbelivable
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Post by zgembo on Nov 22, 2008 19:04:36 GMT -5
Dalmatians and Slavonians are listed here too... obviously these are just regional characterizations
I don't know if any of you can read Cyrillic, but what it also says is that Bugari, Serbi, Bosnjaci, Cernogorci, Slavonci and Dalmatini all belong to the Sloveno-Serbsko koleno LOL
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Post by fazlinho on Nov 22, 2008 19:36:16 GMT -5
I don't see where they mention Slavonci and Dalmatinci..
But this is too funny, now even Bulgars are Serbs...
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Post by zgembo on Nov 23, 2008 4:28:55 GMT -5
Pa jasta su ;D
Procitaj komentar na dnu
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Post by ccccnjegoscccc on Nov 23, 2008 4:37:26 GMT -5
Yeah Markos got a point........it does list slavonci and dalmatinci.
PS. Marko what is it saying about Montenegrins there at the bottom?
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Post by fazlinho on Nov 23, 2008 5:38:40 GMT -5
That Montenegrins aren't Serbs, just slavs.
My bad, I didn't see it mapko.
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Post by bog on Nov 23, 2008 13:35:00 GMT -5
The funny thing is, Bosniacs often try to claim BiH Serbs and Croats, as just BiH pravoslavci/katolici, at the same time most Serbs will say bosniacs are just Serbs who's great great grandpa converted to Islam. Croats often say Bosniacs are Muslim Croats... So, everyone is saying that we are in some way the same people, and try to claim the others as theirs. But yet the same people who are saying this openly hate the other side, and would oppose anything involving brotherhood and unity.. ah, the balkans, such a funny place, would make for a great sitcom
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Post by bosanskinovi on Nov 23, 2008 14:09:47 GMT -5
Claims like that have little, if anything to do with brotherhood. Its all about territorialism.
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Post by kapetan on Nov 23, 2008 15:01:05 GMT -5
The fact is all Serbian propaganda claims have been DEMOLISHED. First that we "invented" the Bosniak name after the war. Of course bulls**t as even this document proves and hundreds of others talking about the Bosniak people througout history. And now that they weren't Bosniaks as well. That they were "always" Bosnian Serbs and Croats. Which is simply not true, but hurts to admit. Another another. According to the bosniac entry in the Oxford English Dictionary, the first known use of bosniak in English was in " 1836 Penny Cycl. V. 231/1 The inhabitants of Bosnia are composed of Bosniaks, a race of Slavonian origin." and it arrived in English either via the French "Bosniaque", or the German "Bosniake", or the Russian "Bosnyak". another example. And another. And another. All from 1800's. Non biased foriegn ecnyclopedias and books who have no agenda to prove anyone is anything. Nobody sane can deny the Catholics and Orthodox of Bosnia adopted the nationality and maybe it even made sense at the time, can't blame them. I'm not here to argue the morality of it, just to show it happend. And nobody can deny that we Bosniaks FAILED to cement our identity and language in that crucial 19th century and that is our fault.
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Post by zgembo on Nov 24, 2008 1:50:19 GMT -5
First that we "invented" the Bosniak name after the war. Of course bulls**t as even this document proves and hundreds of others talking about the Bosniak people througout history. And now that they weren't Bosniaks as well. That they were "always" Bosnian Serbs and Croats. Which is simply not true, but hurts to admit. You didn't invent the name, you resuscitated it. The name was essentially another way of saying Bosnian (a regional identifier) back in the day. You dug it up out of the history books in 1992 and applied it to just yourselves. It is not a straight out invention, but it is pretty damn close. And the Orthodox Christians in Bosnia were always loyal to the Serbian Orthodox Church. Serb and Orthodox were used interchangeably in those times. It was much more natural for them to identify as Serbs (which they did under Ottoman rule, and not because Belgrade induced propaganda) simply thanks to the importance of religion in the Ottoman system. And you can't blame the Ottomans for that either. If the system wasn't as such, you wouldn't have a separate identity today.
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Post by Shmajser on Nov 24, 2008 4:05:08 GMT -5
Dalmatinci and Slavonci comparison would make sense if Bosnia was a region,did Slavonci or Sumadinci for that matter have their own kings, did they have a seperate state,did they have most consistant and recognised borders in the Balkans, which even the Ottomans respected. I don`t think so. ;D In the middle ages people referred to themselves as Bosnjani, that is what people learn when they chose to study Bosnian or Balkan history in all the major western univesities,history on serbdom cafe is different, but that is not my fault.
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Post by kapetan on Nov 24, 2008 5:11:50 GMT -5
First that we "invented" the Bosniak name after the war. Of course bulls**t as even this document proves and hundreds of others talking about the Bosniak people througout history. And now that they weren't Bosniaks as well. That they were "always" Bosnian Serbs and Croats. Which is simply not true, but hurts to admit. You didn't invent the name, you resuscitated it. The name was essentially another way of saying Bosnian (a regional identifier) back in the day. You dug it up out of the history books in 1992 and applied it to just yourselves. It is not a straight out invention, but it is pretty damn close. And the Orthodox Christians in Bosnia were always loyal to the Serbian Orthodox Church. Serb and Orthodox were used interchangeably in those times. It was much more natural for them to identify as Serbs (which they did under Ottoman rule, and not because Belgrade induced propaganda) simply thanks to the importance of religion in the Ottoman system. And you can't blame the Ottomans for that either. If the system wasn't as such, you wouldn't have a separate identity today. No offense but you are an idiot. Bosniak is just as "valid" as Serb, if not more so considering how many "Serbs" became "Serbs" and all the controversies regarding the meaning of "Serv". You obviosly don't know anything about medieval or recent history, since you don't seem to know about the huge influence Serbia/Montenegro/Russia put on Bosnian Orthodox Christians. it's well documented, read some non-Serb books. And thanks for admitting the Bosnian Serb identity is a recent one based on religon. Now you're making progress. So it's ironic for any Bosnian "Serb" to talk about 'traitors" and people "switching". Even genetics will tell you Bosnian Serbs and Croats are much more related to eachother and Bosniaks then they are to their Serbian and Croatian neighbors. Especialy Bosnian Serbs, who are completly different then Serbians. And btw you can thank the Ottomans for Orthodoxy even taking any kind of ground in Bosnia, since before them, almost non-existent on any REAL scale.
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Demonel
Amicus
I am Jack's regained insanity.
Posts: 833
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Post by Demonel on Nov 24, 2008 7:20:55 GMT -5
Yes they did. Dalmatia, Slavonia and Croatia were separate territories with their own rulers. Even today there is a clear difference between people from these regions. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia-Slavonia“The Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia was an autonomous kingdom within Austro-Hungarian Monarchy.” “The Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia was created in 1868, when the former kingdoms of Croatia and Slavonia were joined into one single kingdom.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dalmatia“The Kingdom of Dalmatia was an administrative division (kingdom) of the Habsburg Monarchy from 1815 to 1918. Its capital was Zadar. The Kingdom of Dalmatia was formed from territories that the Habsburg Monarchy conquered from the French Empire in 1815. It remained a separate administrative division of the Habsburg Monarchy until 1918 when most of its territory (excluding Zadar and Lastovo) became part of the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (later Kingdom of Yugoslavia).” miyeonjan.tripod.com/croatia_flags_e03.html
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Post by Shmajser on Nov 24, 2008 7:56:26 GMT -5
19-th century is not middle ages Demonel. ;D
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