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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 27, 2008 14:11:01 GMT -5
The ottoman rule was a desaster for us. First of all it made us totally dependend..in every field...thats why we all were in need of kings at the beginning of our independence...we lost in 400 years of rule or more all hierarchic structures...and were unable to rule our own country...let alone the total intellectual downfall...thanks to the turks who didnt ever have something like worth mentioning proggressive culture...they came from deep Asia, their mentality was this of a conservative Islam...and they devolved that on us...unavoidable. The Christians on the other hand had left behind already the backward years of the middle age...and were on their way to enlightenment...while we had to suffer from just another middle age period...the islamic.. and keep in mind...the muslims still today havent left behind their fanatical religion... We benefited from te elightenment as it helped us to get the support of others to gain independence...but we....the balkan people...the ordinary people...didnt ever internalize the mind of enlightenment....while the Germans French and English were on their way to modernity, we had to fight an urislamic empire to gain something we didnt even know how to administer...with other words we were some blind peoples..moved by something like freedom drive..something which actually every primitive creature has got....thats no big deal in fact. And Im very sure that very many of our todays problems are still a vice from this time.
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 27, 2008 14:13:04 GMT -5
sostos....
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Jun 27, 2008 14:53:36 GMT -5
Without Sultan and Osmans Europe and Greece nowdays will been under roman vandals rule. There are Turk Osmans that saved Greece with Europe from romans brutality and balanced east with west. During Sultan time many Greeks, Albanians and some others been sent and well educated to Universities in Istambul . Turkey and Sultan been shown respect and never broke others religion.
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Post by Toskaliku on Jun 27, 2008 15:21:42 GMT -5
Yea, and look how backwards they are. The Spanish have been a second rate entity since the fall of their empire and a nonentity in the most recent century; the Italians have an economy that is going further and further down the drain and havent been anything special in centuries. Last time the Italians were worth much, the Ottomans were still new to the Balkans. Their "empire" years were marked by defeats in Ethiopia...
None of these places have any universities that are worth much and havent produced anything special in a very very long long time.
In all cases, Italians show a similar mindset to Greeks today(which we Albs have to a level 10x worse) marked by laziness, corruption. Compare the cities in Greece to those in other parts of Europe. And have you been to any modern Italian cities? Outside of what was built 300-500 years ago, its almost all trash.
Then lets not even talk about all the other Med countries outside of Europe...
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Jun 27, 2008 15:51:10 GMT -5
Italian economy is going fast dishesa means going downhill because nonce liretta. ( no money) Forca Italia says jews-italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi from Juda the most hated person in Italy ;D.
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 27, 2008 16:02:03 GMT -5
Yea, and look how backwards they are. The Spanish have been a second rate entity since the fall of their empire and a nonentity in the most recent century; the Italians have an economy that is going further and further down the drain and havent been anything special in centuries. Last time the Italians were worth much, the Ottomans were still new to the Balkans. Their "empire" years were marked by defeats in Ethiopia... None of these places have any universities that are worth much and havent produced anything special in a very very long long time. In all cases, Italians show a similar mindset to Greeks today(which we Albs have to a level 10x worse) marked by laziness, corruption. Compare the cities in Greece to those in other parts of Europe. And have you been to any modern Italian cities? Outside of what was built 300-500 years ago, its almost all trash. Then lets not even talk about all the other Med countries outside of Europe... yeah..your right on some parts. I have been to italy many times and i see your what you mean, BUT if you go to southern france or even barcelona you will see a huge difference as well. As far as those economies go...its due to the fact that those socialist countries are having a hard time adjusting to globalization.
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 27, 2008 16:05:21 GMT -5
but to go back to Greece's case...I agree w/ what Kastor said, if the ottomans never arrived we today would be like the luxembourg of balkans.
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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It's Nice to be Important but It's more Important to be Nice!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Jun 27, 2008 16:12:09 GMT -5
There are for about 7 or 8 million turks that working and doing great job today in Germany. Turks are the most intelligent, hard working and so resistable people on the earth .
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 27, 2008 16:46:26 GMT -5
Mysia no...the drugs you took today are no good...dont take again...
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rex362
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Pellazg
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Post by rex362 on Jun 27, 2008 17:19:56 GMT -5
but to go back to Greece's case...I agree w/ what Kastor said, if the ottomans never arrived we today would be like the luxembourg of balkans. in essence you cant say that ...what if Spain invaded or UFO's from outer space instead.../// btw ..if you really know your history and average common sense ..the Slav invasion did a worse job for Greece's could'of would'of been scenario than anything else .....
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 27, 2008 17:34:39 GMT -5
rex, we're talkin about 400 yrs occupation. The slavs were under control..a little rowdy, but still under control...
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Post by srbobran on Jun 27, 2008 17:46:19 GMT -5
I assume by "Slavs" (an arbitrary linguistic category) you are talking about Serbs and Bulgarians. If so, then you sure as hell didn't have us under control. If the Turks didn't come, we would have taken Greece.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 27, 2008 18:01:46 GMT -5
No I dont think so...
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Post by redbaron on Jun 27, 2008 18:07:18 GMT -5
That's wierd Well I believe Montenegrins are Med, not Dinaric. Montenegrins are great people, but Albanians are our b***hes. A fagot does not have bit*ches.He is the bit*ch.
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Post by Allah on Jun 27, 2008 18:11:18 GMT -5
Yea, and look how backwards they are. The Spanish have been a second rate entity since the fall of their empire and a nonentity in the most recent century; the Italians have an economy that is going further and further down the drain and havent been anything special in centuries. Last time the Italians were worth much, the Ottomans were still new to the Balkans. Their "empire" years were marked by defeats in Ethiopia... None of these places have any universities that are worth much and havent produced anything special in a very very long long time. In all cases, Italians show a similar mindset to Greeks today(which we Albs have to a level 10x worse) marked by laziness, corruption. Compare the cities in Greece to those in other parts of Europe. And have you been to any modern Italian cities? Outside of what was built 300-500 years ago, its almost all trash. Then lets not even talk about all the other Med countries outside of Europe... Spain is doing okay. Update your info. And don't compare universities between countries, unless there's a special context for it. Education is important, but it's better to focus on the bigger picture and if one must start to compare, use the currilicum of a country. America, for instance, has among the best universities in the world, but their general education level is nothing to cheer for. If we want to point out the research question in a country--which universities have a great impact upon--then make it a question about infrastructure.
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libofsha
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Post by libofsha on Jun 27, 2008 18:20:06 GMT -5
greeks went into oblivion under byzantine rule, along with albanians as well, this is the reason why greeks, when we debate about cultural trascendency use the 'no direct link to illyrians thesis' aganist us, but they lost distinguishing traces like all of us just the same, so in that regard you could use that same theory of byzantine overpowerment and cultural suffocation just like the ottoman reign of rule, they are no different, we lost touch with ur ancestral continuation and became integral parts of a byzantine entity with its bona fide set of values just like we morphed under the ottoman occupation, but we tend to despise the latter more because it brought about islamisation and a backward driven mindset,
whether we like each other or not, whether we agree with each or not, despite territorial ambition, despite a fierce policy of assimilation and alienation both nations have undergone a similiar transformation and are without any doubt the closest we have to one another in the balcans.
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libofsha
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socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
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Post by libofsha on Jun 27, 2008 18:25:49 GMT -5
but to go back to Greece's case...I agree w/ what Kastor said, if the ottomans never arrived we today would be like the luxembourg of balkans. lets not get carried away but i do strongly believe there would have been some albo-greek fedaration, some sort of a post byzantine breakaway federation, because at large stages during the past we had not territorial boundaries, we used too live along side each other and in most oberlapping territories people were bilingual and marriages among each other were a common thing
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Post by Toskaliku on Jun 27, 2008 23:00:07 GMT -5
Actually, that has some truth to it. It was the ottomans that allowed the Greek church to regain the authority it once had.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 27, 2008 23:10:59 GMT -5
They knew what they were doing ,imagine the disaster for them if the church made piece with the Roman one......So they nourished it and made it comfortable....
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Post by yahadj on Jun 28, 2008 1:13:21 GMT -5
You Greeks always complain about the Turkish rule as the reason for your decline. But, it has been almost 200 years since your liberation. And also since you hate everything related to that period including the laid back Ottoman mentality how come you still like to pursue it after so many generations?
Just wake up and prove us that you were really different? Is that so tough? You are all modern times generations. You got your own "progressive" education and you still whine about the backward mentality! Why? Most of you haven't seen any Turks in your life to influence you. Why still blaiming Turks? Probably you just liked that laid back mentality, too. Admit it... Material worldly affairs are not that attractive to you either... Friendship and solidarity is more important than career, right?
How many years do you still need to show the world that you are way different than everybody thinks?
Faso fiso...
PEACE
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