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Post by slowdent on Jan 17, 2008 17:25:49 GMT -5
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Post by albanesehoney on Jan 17, 2008 19:52:58 GMT -5
"The TLG has been an invaluable resource for lexicographers and scholars who are interested in identifying forms, locating them in the texts, and analyzing their usage (Adrados 1994). The TLG word index encompasses 1.2 million distinct Greek word forms out of a total of 75 million words. With its sizeable and comprehensive data it provides lexicographers with the raw material which can help resolve reliably a number of questions, including: earliest occurrence of a word, number of occurrences, morphological variation (e.g. identification of various forms with suffixes), variation by genre, date and dialect, and identification of rare words or hapax legomena, namely words appearing once in Greek literature or a particular author. To give an appropriate example, a search in the TLG produces three occurrences of the stem lexikograph-, from which the word 'lexicographer' derives, the earliest one attested in a fragment of the historian Nymphis dated to the fourth to third centuries BC. By contrast, LSJ only provides the latest of the three instances, found in a twelfth century lexicon known as the Etymologicum Magnum." Slow are you fluent in English? Seems like you understood nothing from your quotes and really makes you look stupid. The TLG word index encompasses 1.2 million distinct Greek word forms out of a total of 75 million words. This statement does not claim that Greek contains 1.2 mil. different Greek words, with its own specific root that branches out into 75 million greek word forms from 1.2 million different Greek words. . lolololol 1.2 million distinct greek words is not the same as 1.2 million different greek words. lolol.. This person is stating that the 1.2 million is distinguished/recognized as being Greek in nature...not different from each other, except that it is Different from the 73 million other words/language that is contained in that specific digital library. Out of 75 million words in that library? Well, then, it is clear that 73.8 million words are NOT Greek in nature...in that library. lolol..Slow, you really need to think about what this intro page says at UCI digital library. I'm sure there are 2 million-- different from Greek---distinctly recognizabe Ancient Macedonian words in that same library and most likely 5 million Distinctly recognizable Egyptian words and definitely 15 million distinctly recognizable Albanian words. ;D
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 17, 2008 21:36:35 GMT -5
The reason why I asked is because Greek and English are very complex languages and present themselves (as all languages) within Old and New version and dialects. First we have to identify what that link means when states: Greek language. Because for the new Greek: There are two varieties of Greek that have been used in modern Times: Katharevusa and Demotic. "Katharevusa was a dialect that grew out of a desire by educated people to purify the Greek language of foreign influences, and so was based largely on Koine and Byzantine Greek. It was once the literary language used in Greece, but is now largely obsolete since the Greek government is now favoring Demotic as the preferred language for public communication. Demotic, which is the common spoken dialect throughout Greece, is directly descended from Koine and Byzantine Greek but but there have been many changes to the grammar and vocabulary of the language in the nearly 2000 years that stand between it and Koine. So, the situation is that most older people who were taught to read Katharevusa can probably read passages in Koine without much difficulty. But since younger people have been educated in Demotic, they would probably be able to pick out individual words, but would have difficulty figuring out how they relate to each other in the sentence, since Demotic Greek has dispensed with most of the case endings of Koine and has a verb system that is very different from Koine. As far as vocabulary, Demotic has absorbed many words from other languages over the course of its evolution, and so many words that were common in Koine are no longer common in Demotic. Also, the spelling of many words has been updated to more accurately reflect the modern pronunciation". And for the old Greek: "Koine is the language of Empire as spread by Alexander the Great. Koine is the form of New Testament Greek. It is essentially simplified Greek. Ancient Greek is much a much denser form of Greek. The language characteristics of the likes of Homer is known as classic Greek. There is Attic, Aeolic, Doric, and Ionic. The differences are comprised of elitics and enlitics and the presence or absence of the rough "h" sound to vowel. That is just a brief description". Now, if we consider as Greek LEXICON all words found in old books from Homer to Kazanzaqis, then we would have to ask the biggest question: what is LEXICON? If we separate them (words then are not in use or are in use by other populations as well and are of the same IE Family as origin) then VOCABULARY issue becames easy and we can make a reference: Old Greek vocabulary, Old Latin Vocabulary and Old English vocabulary as well as new ones for all of them. But we cannot be naive and get mistaken because I want to proclaim Italian has 800 million words because I have included Latin and I have counted words from Virgil's and Ovidus' books to today modern writers such as Marinetti or Galbo... (Let alone if substratum as the "root" of the word is not being count as one eliminating sufixess and prefixess!!!) I don't have any more numbers in my imagination to use as to count them....it goes like Aadamin's carma... ;D In other words, if we do not make a division of what we are counting, we cannot know the result of it....so, if we count as Fruit all apples, banans, cherries etc...and the total is 250, you cannot sell all of it to me as Apples...because is not!!! You see...I got hungry now...
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Post by slowdent on Jan 18, 2008 3:34:47 GMT -5
Albhoney
in total those texts were made of 75.000.000 words. In those texts one can indentify 1.200.000 DISTINCT words (meaning excluding types, combination of words etc).
does this answer your
or do you need a shovel to take the sh1t off your eyes first?
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Post by slowdent on Jan 18, 2008 3:40:34 GMT -5
Teuta
nice analysis, nice try but
Katharevousa and demotiki are 2 "dialects" based on the same VOCABULARY. which means that we have simplified the use of verb tenses, the accents, but nobody said anything about substituting the vocabulary.....
In the TLG we talk about DISTINCT words. not verbal types, not jargon, not verbs in tenses.
for the rest, the author and the tlg are available online and easily accessible.
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 18, 2008 15:28:26 GMT -5
All the words in Ancient Greek are STILL present in Modern Greek! Just because some words are not used regularly does not mean they don't exist. Now add this to what Slowdent posted above.
Now that we have established that Greek has more words than English I am curious as to how many words in the English language are distinctly English OR from one of the original languages that formed Old English before Latin and Greek so heavily influenced it?
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 18, 2008 15:30:45 GMT -5
Albhoney, Read the following. www.thefreedictionary.com/distinctdis·tinct (d-stngkt) adj. 1. Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions. 2. Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor. 3. Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage. 4. Very likely; probable: There is a distinct possibility that she won't come. 5. Notable: a distinct honor and high privilege.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 18, 2008 21:50:59 GMT -5
Teuta
Yours is even better than mine...
Vocabulary is the AMOUNT of Lexis...and Lexis and other structures (verbs, tenses etc) make the language. My quesiton wasn't referred to Koine and Demotic but mostly to old Greek: Attic, Aeolic, Doric, and Ionic.
Niklianos, how different is old Greek from New one? Can you give me a few words as example? Words that are similar and are not. Is for my personal curiosity and has nothing to do with this forum.
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Post by albanesehoney on Jan 18, 2008 22:49:17 GMT -5
Albhoney in total those texts were made of 75.000.000 words. In those texts one can indentify 1.200.000 DISTINCT words (meaning excluding types, combination of words etc). does this answer your or do you need a shovel to take the sh1t off your eyes first? No, but I think you've been eating skata for way too long about this TLG Electronic library... Here's what the director of this project says about the count of Greek words in her UCI TLG Electronic library of Greek texts from 800BC to the Byzantine works.We have no data for Latin but on the Greek side, TLG E(lectronic library) contains 72 million words of Greek (76 million raw words in total), with 1.2 million lexical forms.
These are *not* distinct lexemes, since our word index is not lemmatised.
Our collection is complete up to 600 A.D. (extant works) and includes a large number (but not all) of late Byzantine works. I agree, it is impossible to estimate the exact number of words in any language but these numbers provide, perhaps, some indication about the number of known Greek words.
Maria Pantelia TLG Project omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/CLA-L/2000/01/0364.phpSlow, I'm sure you need help with the definitions of the words Ms Pantelia used in her answer about the word count in Greek language. I even used Niklianos's linked dictionary to help clear the crap over your eyes about this electronic library... lex·eme (lksm) noun. The fundamental unit of the lexicon of a language. Find, finds, found, and finding are forms of the English lexeme find. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Noun 1. lexeme - a minimal unit (as a word or stem) in the lexicon of a language; `go' and `went' and `gone' and `going' are all members of the English lexeme `go' www.thefreedictionary.com/lexemelem´ma`tize (lĕm´må`tîz`)v. t. 1. To convert into a lemma{2}; to normalize the form of (a word) to that form used as the headword in a dictionary, glossary, or index; as, "ride" is the lemmatized form for "riding" and "ridden". www.thefreedictionary.com/lemmatisedSo, for those of you still thinking the whole Greek language, with distinctly and separate root lexemes, count to about 250,000 words in the whole, from antiquity to the popular form used in Greece now, you are correct. ;D
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 18, 2008 23:18:34 GMT -5
.
[glow=red,2,300]albanians stop to insulting the topic and more respect to the greek language please !!![/glow]
Using Greek language you can express very deep ideas and very sharp distinctions, this is why Greek language : is the language of philosophy, theology and science and have more than 5.000.000 words.In English language more than 1000 words of everyday use are Greek !!!
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 18, 2008 23:26:13 GMT -5
Karta, most languages can express deep feelIngs and expressions...
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 18, 2008 23:49:16 GMT -5
teuta1975 do you know? that the greek language have...influence most of the other languages !! greek gave us comedy, tragedy, the senate, sorority and paternity, mathematic, science and astronomy, etc. most teach greek language, history, culture, and religion,,,
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 19, 2008 0:33:07 GMT -5
I know. Wasn't Greek language which gave us comedy, tragedy, the senate (is it Greek or Latin?) etc...it were the people who invented the notions and phenomens and named them. Therefore, an old civilization has obviously more terms re: the abovementioned "inventions". Once the "phenomen"spread to other civilizations, people either took the same meaning or adapted it according to their respective languages. And this is called contact. But if the term "Democratia" means Democracy in English and in other languages, it doesn't matter if is borrowed by Greeks or Latins. (Correct me here - originally demos is people and not the meaning it has today) It is part of English Vocabulary (inside a dictionary, which is the book). If you discount it from English because is being borrowed by Greek it doesn't mean people don't use it. What I am trying to say is that if Greek has only one word for it, other languages may have synonyms, which are created from each language's substrattum, after they took the "phenomen" from Greeks. No one is denying the great contribute of Greek language. But it is impossible to conclude which language has more words, because no one can ever count all the existant words in a language. (not to mention that many words have lost their initial meaning) And I personally believe Greek language is enough rich as to sucessfully compete with other languages of "rank" such as Chinese, Egyptian, Hebrew, Latin, Russian, English etc. and to deserve a place of honor among them.
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Post by Kassandros on Jan 19, 2008 0:52:46 GMT -5
Teuta "Niklianos, how different is old Greek from New one? Can you give me a few words as example? Words that are similar and are not. Is for my personal curiosity and has nothing to do with this forum. " --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll give you an example just came into my mind Teuta where ancient words meet the modern speech in our language without us paying any notice.
Water in ancient Greek is ..ýäùñ (idor) Water in modern Greek is...íåñü (nero)
Water reserves in Modern Greek is... õäñáãùãåßï (ydragogeio)
One more example
Bread in ancient Greek is .. Üñôïò (artos) Bread in modern Greek is... øùìß (psomi)
Bakery in Modern Greek is... áñôïðïéßï (artopiio)
One more example:
Push back in ancient Greek is ... Üëåî (alex) Push back in modern Greek is .. áðùèþ (apotho)
Lighting conductor in Modern Greek is ..áëåîéêÝñáõíï(alexikeravno) Bulletproof in Modern Greek is...áëåîßóöáéñï (alexisfero)
So as you see, there is a constant interaction between modern and ancient Greek in everyday language. Most of the people dont know they use in their modern language those ancient words since these are part of their modern dialect
Nevertheless, everybody can read ancient scripts and understand the meaning. Of course there are some gups... but the meaning can be taken precisely. Its like a young Briton reading Sheakspear.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 19, 2008 0:56:13 GMT -5
Thank you Basil, I really appriciate it.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 19, 2008 3:37:45 GMT -5
basilmacedon
the fool goes about like a sheep saying ba ba
ï ä çëéèéïò ùóðåñ ðñïâáôùí âç âç ëåãùí âáäéæåé ;D
Ancient Greeks In Sparta they had the Doric dialect (Äùñéêç äéáëåêôïò ), in Athens they had the Attic dialect (Áôôéêç äéáëåêôïò ) and other dialects in other places. This, however, didn't prevent them from communicating and understanding each other without great difficulties, because the differences between the dialects were not very significant. Their language was virtually the same. Take the Modern Greek word ìçôåñá(mother) for instance. In Athens, it was ,ìçôçñ whereas in Sparta it was ìáôçñ. The Athenian article ôçí was in Sparta ôáí.
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 19, 2008 14:36:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the examples Basilis!
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Post by slowdent on Jan 20, 2008 4:49:08 GMT -5
alb honey
In what way is this different than this :
in total those texts were made of 75.000.000 words. In those texts one can indentify 1.200.000 DISTINCT words (meaning excluding types, combination of words etc).
In the TLG we talk about DISTINCT words. not verbal types, not jargon, not verbs in tenses.
What is next ? are you going to claim invention of fire or the wheel ?
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Post by albanesehoney on Jan 20, 2008 13:05:06 GMT -5
alb honey In what way is this different than this : in total those texts were made of 75.000.000 words. In those texts one can indentify 1.200.000 DISTINCT words (meaning excluding types, combination of words etc). In the TLG we talk about DISTINCT words. n ot verbal types, not jargon, not verbs in tenses.What is next ? are you going to claim invention of fire or the wheel ? Try to understand that if the TLG E Library's index of Greek words are not lemmatized, then, the count of 1.2 million Greek words is flawed. Because, even though, the library is not counting jargon or combinations, they are counting gone, went, goes, for the core word "go". And, so on. If we count these different forms, then, English stands to blow away all other languages on this planet. This library is in fact counting the variations on the same lexene over and over again, as they appear in the texts. Ms Pantelia makes it clear here: These are *not* distinct lexemes, since our word index is not lemmatised. So, there stands the facts about this electronic library and the claims made by the Greek cultural ministry and you...you both lost out on your 1.5 to 5 million words claim in the Greek language. Slow, stick to the subject and stop jumping to what other nations claim. If you want to claim you discovered fire, by all means, we'll accept you as the mascot for Greece.
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Post by slowdent on Jan 20, 2008 15:26:42 GMT -5
ALBHONEY
trhat is what they DO NOT
u XXXXXX?
===========
Edit.
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