Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 3, 2008 8:20:27 GMT -5
I have noticed especially with our good friends the Albanians,whenever the topic turns to Alexander or any other ancient hero or tribe..they with no shame, throw the 'barbarian' curve at us.... The Macedonians were barbarians therefore they were not Greek.... the Spartans were barbarians..therefore yada yada yada.... Guys.... it won't work and you cannot change written history..no matter how many old muslim men with white muslim skullcaps you use on your signature.. not gonna happen... at best we get a laugh out of it..... especially when I start reading the threads over at Albania dot com.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 3, 2008 12:24:14 GMT -5
Well, it's not just nationalist Albanians and Slav Macedonians. You have western scholars too studying the ancient peoples living within what is modern Greece, their culture and why some of them were labeled 'barbarians'. In the Spartans' case, I do believe there's a consensus over the nature of them being called barbarians. Their way of life was quite unique, different from the rest of Greece, "the first national socialist state" to quote Hitler. But in Macedonia's case, you have some ancient sources not only referring to them as 'barbarians', but clearly as different from Greeks too. Demosthenes is one example. There are also references to difficulties in communication. This might have been a dialectical thing, however; the references are made to 'makedonisti' and 'atikisti' (Attic Greek) -- the latter was just a dialect, since you also had other Greek dialects. Personally, from what I've read, I have come to the conclusion that the ancient Macedonians by the time of Philip II & Alexander the Great were very much Greek, atleast those of Pella and the coast ... not to mention the royal and noble class. There were probably Illyrian and Thracian elements in the west, north and east. Whether this Greekness of the Macedonians was the result of voluntary assimilation or simply an indication that Macedonians were always Greeks, is a different matter. References to them as 'barbarians' were made either because the Macedonians were indeed originally non Greek, or because they developed, over the corse of time, a distinct local identity which evolved in paralell with the rest of Greece. What is for certain, however, is that Alexander the Great clearly identified with Hellenism and spread the language and culture of continental Greece to the far East. He identified Achilles and Heracles as his forefathers (Achilles from his mother's side and Heracles from his father's). The royal family even traced their ancestry from Argos, Peloponessus. If born anything else, he definetely chose to represent Greece and Hellenism in his quest for glory and power. That said, I do not doubt he lent some of our forefathers' muscles to subdue the Persians. It would certainly not be the last time you Greeks did so
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 3, 2008 14:09:27 GMT -5
You know Donnie when you make posts like the above... you totally own me..you leave me with no words to strike back... nice post... and I can't really disagree with it..
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 3, 2008 15:08:28 GMT -5
Donnie,
there are only 2 people that ever called Philip or the Macedonians as Barbarians. One of them is Demosthenes, do you know who the other is?
With Demosthenes calling the Macedonians as 'Barbarian' it is quite evident what the context of his speech was and what he meant by 'barbarian'. He was pro-Athenian and he wanted Athens to retain it's dominance. He also gives away what he meant by 'barbarian'. He does say that "not even a descent slave can be bought there." This shows that he is speaking culturally not ethnically. This is the same as for the Spartans being called 'barbarians' by the Athenians. The Athenians, as today, consider everyone else to be below them, thus 'barbarian'. One reason the Spartans were called 'barbarian' was due to their drinking un-cut wine.
If you cannot find who was the only other person to call the Macedonians as 'barbarian' and what he had in common with Demosthenes I will post it.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 3, 2008 15:10:28 GMT -5
Well, I guess I'm in a mood of being nice to Greeks this week because I am reading the Iliad for the first time (in Albanian), and I must say I am impressed. Patroclus has just died and Achilles is leading the Greeks to avenge his friend and kill Hector before his own time comes. Niklianos I am aware of both sides' arguments concerning Demosthenes and his use of the term 'barbarian' to describe the Macedonians. And tell me, who is the other person who called the Macedonians 'barbarians'? It has been a long time since I've read much about ol' Alex, so my memory is hazy.
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rex362
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Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
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Post by rex362 on Jan 4, 2008 10:58:37 GMT -5
lets first learn the word "Barbar" and its correct meaning
in Alb "BarBar " is .... not having a understandable speech ....nothing to do with being wild or savage like ...somebody eventually perverted the word to its modern barbarian term
Barbarlit in Alb = when its not a understandable speech
like sometime when ahristos barbarlits ;D
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 4, 2008 11:33:21 GMT -5
Yeah..so what..it means the same in Greek..... and who you think came up with it first?
You get you're info from uneducated Greeks in your restaurant... WTF do they know....?
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rex362
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Pellazg
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Post by rex362 on Jan 4, 2008 12:10:11 GMT -5
leave my Greek friends alone !
........................................................................ you didn't see me here all day yesterday ...did you miss me ?
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 4, 2008 12:33:54 GMT -5
Yes..... where the heck were you?
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rex362
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Pellazg
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Post by rex362 on Jan 4, 2008 12:56:10 GMT -5
robbing homes of Greek families ...all day long ;D
nahhh...my computer was down ...I was going nutso all day long ....its so addictive ...
btw ...you wanna buy a hat ..makes a great souvenir or just as nicknack's ....will make great talk at parties ,impress your friends ...be the talk of the town ...they eventually will lock you up in the kookoo house you know..
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Post by leandros nikon on Jan 4, 2008 14:22:28 GMT -5
is donnie dijedon??
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 4, 2008 14:48:57 GMT -5
donnie is ahristos .....didnt you know ?
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