donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 13, 2009 8:28:11 GMT -5
Donnie, lets say that me and Leandros create a " secret society"( something like Philiki Etaireia) having as goal to free all the enslaved Greek lands...and anybody firstly has to swear in the name of Hellas...will you join? Why anyone should join if he isn't or doesn't feel Greek? So you're saying that all warriors who fought on the Greek side had time to make the oath of Philiki Etairia? It doesn't seem realistic; it would have taken too much time. Not to mention that the Bocarenjt and all other Suliots had already picked up arms against the Ottomans, long before the Philiki Etairia emerged. Many Albanian Muslims also fought on your side, like Tafil Buzi, Celo Myrto, Ago Vasjari etc. I doubt they took the Philiki Etairia oath.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 13, 2009 8:38:04 GMT -5
Its like us claiming Mehmet the conquerer since he was ethnically greek. Big deal...at the end of the day he stormed constaninople and overthrew the byzantines. Our albo friends cant see it that way... The reason is that we have too many hero's and they only have a handful. So that is the reason why they cling to everything albanian even the ones that fought for greece while we despise and do not acknowledge the greeks that fought for the turks. That is the difference.. bottom line is we are beating on a dead horse....lets stick a fork in it and call it a day. "Nice" psychoanalytical work there Freud ... Actually, your paralell is ridiculous. Mehmed II Fatih was a conquoror of Greec & Constantinople. Of course you don't want to claim him, or Bayezit who's mother was a Greek princess. The Greek genes was very present in the Ottoman royal family. But naturally Greeks don't go around claiming them, trumpeting their Greekness -- this because these Sultans were your enemies. Do you see us Albanians celebrating Ballaban Badera, the pasha whose origins were in Mati, Albania? No, because he was the archenemy of Skanderbeg. There is no reason to claim him. But the Bocarenjt, the Suliots, the Arvanites etc, didn't fight us. That is why we put emphasis on their Albanian identity. This in order to balance out the Greek emphasis on the "turkalvanoi". By doing this we wish to picture a fair picture of our role in the conflict of the 1820s, which wasn't a black & white deal. We fought on both sides, but I suspect our contribution in your war for liberty outweighs the contribution we gave in the Ottoman army to squelch your rebellion. Mehmet Bushati's campaign and his soldiers' reluctance to fight exemplify this. None of this is tied to some envy of ours towards the Greeks due to a "lack of heroes". Realistically speaking, I personally, and I suspect my peers share my sentiments, cannot feel jealousy over what was a rather privileged pet role you enjoyed throughout the Ottoman age, with a Church that collaborated extensively in the silencing of popular rebellions rather than doing the opposite. We have our own heroes to talk about, but it's also fun to notice that you needed a serious dose of Albanian blood to match this heroism in your final rebellion for freedom and the making of an independent Greece.
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 13, 2009 8:47:51 GMT -5
" the Suliots, the Arvanites etc, didn't fight us. "
Youre right...but they didnt fight for albania either. They fought for Greece's freedom. When you guys realize this and accept that your bretheren thought of themselves differently at that time is when relations will become a lot better. But to ignore this fact, and just call them ethnic albos is just stupid. I dont really think anybody at the time had an idea of an ethnic mentality. It was us against them...
I dont deny their contribution, I admire it. But, i believe there were more turkoalbanians then there were philellene albos. Anyway...WW2 and your chams really threw a wrench in the wheel. Not to mentinon these common criminals over here. Just yesterday a 32 yr old girl shot and killed over 300 euros by an albanian. But, I wont start that topic again....
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 13, 2009 8:59:45 GMT -5
its funny how you say that we were priveledged...LOL ! Yes we were managers of the ottomans, but that was due to their stupidity to govern than anything else. You are the ones that changed your names en masse to muslim ones. You guys were there enforcers and henchmen, Ppl like Ali Pasha ( wtf kind of a name is that anyway for a white man ) and company were the priveledged ones.
Anyway...that is just a brief history of our nation. Did philellene albos contribute ? Yes, and we consider them as equal as the next greek. It would be nice to have that solidarity again..
I think it will happen too..Im sick of seeing these asians here more than im sick of these albos..
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 13, 2009 9:17:37 GMT -5
It is relative expatriot. Who is to say that they fought for a Greece as percepted by you? And not because of an inherited instinct to fight an enemy of many centuries? The Arvanites & Suliots fought the Turks long before modern nationalism emerged, and long before the Revolution of 1821 broke out.
Either way, I don't think our inter-ethnic relations depend on our interpretations of how 19th century heroes defined themselves ethnically. So don't inflate the importance of this topic to make it political as well.
Perhaps it is true. Neither you nor I have statistics to confirm anything. But, I do know that the Muslim support enjoyed by the Philiki Etairia and the revolutionary movement was lost after the massacres of Muslims in Peloponessus in the early phase of the war. This turned many of the Albanian Muslims against the revolution. One of them was Ago Vasjari, who when the Egyptian soldiers wanted to desecrate Marko Bocari's grave, intervened in sign of respect. This same man was later mercilessly massacred by the Greeks ...
The Cam collaboration and the impact of this collaboration has been used as a camouflage to achieve a political goal since long aspired by Greek nationalists. Their collaboration was if anything the result of and revenge for a systematic & institutionalized opression exercised by the contemporary Greek governments of the interwar period and earlier.
In either way, the collaboration of certain elements surely did not justify the expulsion of an entire population and the indiscriminate massacres of atleast 5,000 civilians. Or would you sincerely sugest no quislings at all existed amidst your own Greek ranks?
Well, criminals exist on both sides, like those Greek paedophils acting as priests sexually abusing little children. But that is totally off topic.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 13, 2009 9:29:31 GMT -5
oooops!!!i thought that the Souliot's main opponent was Ali Pasha and turkoalbs in general...The war between Suliots and turkoalbanians lasted for thirteen years and resulted to the destruction of Suli...The survivors left to Corfu and south greece...
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 13, 2009 9:42:04 GMT -5
Kitsos Tzavelas,another...albanian!
wikipedia
After independence, Tzavelas became a supporter of Kapodistria and eventually a leader in the Russian Party which was the conservative and arch-Orthodox political faction in the period of King Otto. Accused of planning a revolt against the king in 1834, Tzavelas was imprisoned by the Regency Council head by von Armansperg along with other politicians of the Russian Party. When King Otto reached the age of majority and took over the reigns of government, Tzavelas was released and later was named aide-de-camp to the king. He was subsequently appointed Minister of War in 1844 and, in 1847-1848, Prime Minister. Kitsos Tzavelas died on March 21, 1855.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 13, 2009 10:11:34 GMT -5
leandros why you say army of tepelena "albanians" and specific from Suliots (when they were too albanians)? before crap read history of that time
Army of Ali Pasha like Suliots were Albanians, Vllachs ect, the reason why they were in war because Suliots did'nt wanted to be undergone of Ali pashe Tepelena.
Same "Bushatliu" tribes in North Albanian were in War with Ali pashe Tepelena because they same like Suliots refused to be under Tepelena.
Ali Pashe Tepelena tried to create own Empire it is reason why he foght againt turks.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 13, 2009 10:19:26 GMT -5
If they (Suliots and Bushatliu's) would had allianced with Tepelena, Albanian lands would be liberated before 120 years and would be more great than today is.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 13, 2009 11:00:33 GMT -5
thats my point,exactly!well,they did not!they had chosen to fight for the greek cause...they contributed to the making of modern GREECE,this was their choice,do you get it?
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 13, 2009 11:23:19 GMT -5
Prijes, i think that statement you made pretty much says it all. Il leave it at that.
leandros..good point, i was trying to explain the samething.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 13, 2009 13:51:04 GMT -5
thats my point,exactly!well,they did not!they had chosen to fight for the greek cause...they contributed to the making of modern GREECE,this was their choice,do you get it? yeah albanians who gived that 2) They Suliots just foght about their own homes, family, religion not "about Greece" they just wanted to get out turks. 3) they after move in south Greece, they were rules of that land unlike in Cameria which was Tepelena. who? and Bushatliu chosed for freedom of Greece like others albanian tribes which Tepelena was war in them? If you read history of all balcan peoples...every people had wars with each others (bulgarians, romanians, serbians ect), Tepelena with Suliots foght (both albanians) just to rule Cameria-Epiri. Skanderbeg and Dukagjini too submissived by force some small albanian tribes just to united againt osmans
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 13, 2009 14:46:19 GMT -5
And do you know the names of some of the warriors of Ali pasha Tepelena that fought against the Suliots? Andruco, Bakola, Vangjel Zapa etc. .. ? This shows that this was an internal dispute, for power and domination, and the two sides weren't strictly defined in religious terms, such as Muslims vs Christians. As you see, Ali pasha had many Christian fighters that pledged their allegiance to him, like Thanas Vaja, just as he had many Muslim enemies like the Cam landlords.
So the idea of "Suliots vs turkalvanoi" is really a modern myth, created for the purpose of feeding illusory perceptions -- unless you consider Androutsos a "tourkalvanos"?
Many Albanians decided to aid the Greek cause, even Muslims, as those listed above. That doesn't make them ethnically Greek, do you understand? Instead of showing appreciation, you delude yourself into thinking that anyone who fought for you must be Greek. Tell me, was Lord Byron a Greek? Or a philhellene? Was the International fleet that defeated the Turkish and Egyptian naval forces at Navarino 1827 Greeks too?
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 13, 2009 15:35:26 GMT -5
Why Souliotes hadn't organised with the Albanians ,northern all the way up to Ghegaria, against Topkapi? I mean something analogous with what happened with the rest of Greeks and them. Ok,Suliotes were a mixed population, bilingual, speaking arvanitika and romeika(as Botsaris calls them). They made a choise as a special group, and this choise was to embrace the Hellenic idea, not with simple words of compassion towards Greek Struggle but they were killed for it, a huge percentage of them died in the battle of Phalero in 1827. Their kids and their children and grandchildren viewed themselves as Greeks as all Arvanites did and do...And you know what...if anybody believes that he's Greek,share the same national ideals, and is ready to be killed for Hellenismos than he's Greek for me...even if he speaks souahili...
(transfered)
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 13, 2009 15:43:57 GMT -5
Because we, unfortunately, did not enjoy the same unity as you did.
Actually they were monoglot. Bocari only learned Greek in Corfu. Ad they did not speak Arvanitika, but the Cam dialect. Very close, but certain differences do exist; enough to classify them two as separate dialects of the same language.
Actually they just had a tradition of fighting against Turks and maintain their position as free highlanders, like the Catholic Albanian highlanders or Montenegro. When Ali pasha Tepelena defeated them and altered the region's political climate, they continued offering their military services elsewhere, among them the Philiki Etairists ... this doesn't make them ethnic Greeks, anymore than Lord Byron.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 13, 2009 16:01:43 GMT -5
Because we, unfortunately, did not enjoy the same unity as you did. Is it a serious argument? Actually they were monoglot. Bocari only learned Greek in Corfu. Ad they did not speak Arvanitika, but the Cam dialect. Very close, but certain differences do exist; enough to classify them two as separate dialects of the same language. Suliotes where bilinguals, thats why they were confused many many times by travellers, and some call them Greeks and other Albanians. And it is "arvanitika"....Botsaris' own hand:(right page,in the third line,left) Actually they just had a tradition of fighting against Turks and maintain their position as free highlanders, like the Catholic Albanian highlanders or Montenegro. When Ali pasha Tepelena defeated them and altered the region's political climate, they continued offering their military services elsewhere, among them the Philiki Etairists ... this doesn't make them ethnic Greeks, anymore than Lord Byron. So good you know history...Philiki Etairia ceased to exist from the time Revolution started...it is true that unfortunately Suliotes much of their time were pendulous under Mavrokordatos and the rest Phanariotes who together with Ydriotes' nobility alsmost destroy everything that had already achieved... And by the way, why did the majority of Albo islamized,if you only consider the christian Souliotes and Malsors free... Can I,as Greek, be proud of the Janissaries of Greek origin who fought against Balkanians in Kosovo,for example...they did it for the osman bayrak...and surely they denounced any relation with their ex-fellow Greeks,even if they still spoke their mother tongue. Today do you think it would be prideful to put this guy as my avatar? :
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Post by meltdown711 on Mar 13, 2009 17:00:06 GMT -5
Thats your ancestor? He looks pretty central asian to me... And what makes you say that your ancestors were ever Janissaries? Your a Kaur not a Musulman. And Im proud of my Janissary ancestors, yes... they brought terror into the mind of all who fought them... so much so Europe had to create comical characters based off of them to make themselves feel better. And to end it: F*(& Marko Bocari.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 13, 2009 17:09:09 GMT -5
Botsaris,Tzavelas and their families did not behave simply as phillelenes but as greeks.Tzavelas even became a greek prime minister.Marko's son and brother were minister of war,general of the greek army,and so on.This is not called phillelenismos (=being friends of Greece) but afomoiosi (=assimilation).IF they were trully albanians once... As about Albanians being friends of Greece,allow me to be very sceptical about this,only by bringing in mind the immense hatred of their descendants towards my people... Our general impression about muslim Albanians is that they fought against the greek revolution as hard as they could.I see that whenever i read about any battle of the revolution.Could you remind us the names of some albo pashas that fought against us?
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 17, 2009 16:16:23 GMT -5
THE NAMES OF SOME IMPORTANT SULIOT FAMILIES...
TZAVELAS ( PAPAZAXOS )-BOTSARIS-DRAKOS-DAGLIS-KOUTSONIKAS-KARABINAS-BOUSIS-SEXOS-KALOGEROS-ZARBAS-VELIOS-THANASIS-KASKARIS-TORAS-MANTZAS-PAPAGIANIS-VASOS-TONTAS-SAXINIS-PALAMAS-MATAS-BOUSGOS-ZERVAS-NIKAS-SALARIS-PANTAZIS-BOUFOS-TZORAS-BEKAS-DAGLIANIS-HRAS. And more SOULIOTIKA NAMES. LAKIOTIS-PANOS-KITSOS-MALAMOS-KARAMITSOS-BOBIRAS-KASMAS-PALASKAS-DIAMANTIS-YIOTIS-NAKOS .
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