|
Post by rusebg on Nov 10, 2007 17:06:23 GMT -5
That with the four languages Japodian is talking about (Hallo mate, long time no see) is really absurd. Practically there are about hundred words probably that are different and it is called a separate language?!
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Nov 12, 2007 18:35:31 GMT -5
That with the four languages Japodian is talking about (Hallo mate, long time no see) is really absurd. Practically there are about hundred words probably that are different and it is called a separate language?! Except for Montenegrin all those languages he refers to have been historically referred to as seperate languages. One cna find historical documents mentioning Serbian, Croatia, and Bosnian. Their is no historical mention of Montenegrin. Their is no mention of montenegrin until the mid-90s.
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Nov 13, 2007 3:45:17 GMT -5
that is because montenegrins throughout history have mostly called their language "Naski", Naski = Crnogorski
get a grip people
|
|
|
Post by rusebg on Nov 13, 2007 5:50:08 GMT -5
Guys, from a linguistic point of view it is one and the same language. Whatever it is called in different places makes no difference.
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Nov 13, 2007 10:09:31 GMT -5
that is because montenegrins throughout history have mostly called their language "Naski", Naski = Crnogorski get a grip people No. Throughout history the language of the Montenegrins by Montenegrins was referred to as Serbian. The closest thing Dukljans have ever shown to Montenegrin being a seperate language was King Nikola saying that Torlak dialect speakers can't speak the Serbian language properly -- and that really doesn't constitute the claim that there is a seperate Montenegrin language.
|
|
|
Post by Niklianos on Nov 13, 2007 23:09:27 GMT -5
Well here is some research I found while trying to figure out the differences between Bulgarian and FYROM languages. Every seems to forget that what is taught in schools was not what the common spoken, everyday language was and is.
This info will clear up why a FYROM and a Bulgarian have some trouble understanding each other. It really depends on their age and the area they come from.
Shopi (шопи, scientific transliteration šopi; singular шоп, šop, with various regional names also existing) is a regional term referring to the inhabitants of the region of Shopluk (Шоплук, Šopluk) located in central Western Bulgaria (around Sofia and the adjacent areas), but also to similar groups in central eastern Serbia (around Pirot) and the Republic of Macedonia (around Štip, Gevgelija and Strumica). In each country the members of the group are considered and self-declare as Bulgarians, Serbs and Macedonians respectively. This article is primarily about the Shopi of Bulgaria.
Dialect
The Shopi of Bulgaria speak a group of related dialects that belong to the "et" (western) group of Bulgarian dialects. Their location makes them one of two continuous transitional dialect groups which separate the eastern branch of south Slavic languages (Bulgarian and Macedonian) from the western branch (the modern forms of Serbo-Croat, and Slovenian). The adjoining dialects situated in Northern Macedonia and Southern Serbia are called Torlakian. The dialects spoken by the Shopi are sometimes collectively referred to as шопски (Shopski), although that is not the accepted term in Bulgarian dialectology. [1] The groups that tend to be most closely associated with that term and to match the stereotypical idea of "Shopski" speech are the South-Western dialects and in particular, naturally, the dialects of Sofia and Elin Pelin, as these are closest to the capital. They differ from standard Bulgarian through a number of characteristic features.
The exposition below is based on Stoyko Storykov's Bulgarian dialectology (2002, first ed. 1962) [1], although other examples are used. The Standard Bulgarian words and sentences are given in romanization, with no attempt at scientific transcription apart from stress marking.
[edit] Features of Shopski shared by all or most western Bulgarian dialects
[edit] Phonology
* The so-called variable /ja/ (променливо я), which corresponds to the Old Bulgarian yat vowel and is realised, in the standard language, as /ja/ or /'a/ (/a/ with palatalisation of the preceding consonant) in some positions and /e/ in others, is always pronounced /e/ in Shopski. Example: Shopski пресно млеко (presno mleko) vs standard Bulgarian прясно мляко (prjasno mljako, fresh milk)
* The verbal endings for first person singular and third person plural have no palatalisation. Example: Shopski седа/седъ (seda, sedǎ) vs standard Bulgarian седя (sedja, to sit)
* There is little or no reduction of unstressed vowels.
* The personal pronoun for the first person singular is "я" ("ja") instead of "аз" ("az").
* The personal pronouns for the third person are masc. он (on), fem. она (ona), neut. оно (ono), pl. они (oni).
* Palatalized /k/ occurs in some cases where it is absent in the standard language. Examples: Shopski макя (makja) vs standard Bulgarian майка (majka) (mother); Банкя (Bankja, a town near Sofia, derived from Бань-ка, Ban'-ka, with a transfer of the palatal sound from N to K)
[edit] Morphology
* The preposition (and prefix) "у" ("u") is used instead of "в" ("v"). Example: Shopski у градо (u grado) vs standard Bulgarian в града (v grada) (in town)
[edit] Features characteristic the South-West Bulgarian dialect group
[edit] Phonology
* In most (though not all) forms of Shopski, the stressed "ъ" (/ɤ/) sound of standard Bulgarian (which corresponds to Old Bulgarian big yus) or yer) is substituted with /a/ or /o/. Example: Shopski моя/мойо маж ме лаже (moja/mojo maž me laže), че одим навонка (če odim navonka) vs standard Bulgarian моят мъж ме лъже, ще ходя навън/ка) (mojǎt mǎz me lǎže, šte hodja navǎn/ka), (my husband is lying to me, I'll be going out)
[edit] Morphology
* Most often the definite article for masculine nouns is -о (-o) or -от (-ot) instead of -а (-a) or -ът (-ǎt). Example: Shopski отивам у градо (otivam u grado) vs standard Bulgarian отивам в града (otivam v grada) (I am going in town)
* The -ен, -йен/-en, -jen past passive participle ending is used much more extensively in the Shop dialect than in the standard language, which often has -т/-t instead. Example: Shopski умийен ( umijen, "washed"), убийен (ubijen, "killed"), открийен (otkrijen, "opened" or "discovered"), vs standard Bulgarian умит (umit), убит (ubit), открит (otkrit)
* In the past tenses (aorist and imperfect) and in the past participle the stress falls always on the ending and not on the stem. Example: Shopski гле'дах (gle'dah), гле'дал (gle'dal) vs standard Bulgarian 'гледах ('gledah), 'гледал ('gledal) ( was watching; [he, she, it] watched)
[edit] Features characteristic of the Sofia and Elin Pelin dialects
[edit] Morphology
* In the present tense for the first and second conjugation, the ending for the first person singular is often -м (-m) and for the plural is -ме (-me) instead of -а/я (-a/ja) and -м (-m), respectively, as in standard Bulgarian. Example: Shopski я седим, ние седиме (ja sedim, nie sedime) vs standard Bulgarian аз седя, ние седим (az sedja, nie sedim) (I am sitting, we are sitting)
* Most often the particle for the forming of the future tense is "че" (če) (Sofia dialect), ке (k'e) or "ше" (še) (Elin Pelin), instead of standard "ще" (šte). The form "še" is used in the more urbanized areas and is rather common in the colloquial speech of Sofia in general. Example: Shopski че одим/че (ше) ода (če odim/če (še) oda) vs standard Bulgarian ще ходя (šte hodja) (I will be going)
[edit] Other features
The /x/-sound is often omitted. Despite being particularly associated with Shopski, this is actually characteristic of most rural Bulgarian dialects. Example: Shopski леб (leb), одиа (odia) vs standard Bulgarian хляб (hljab), ходиха (hodiha) (bread, they went)
[edit] Vocabulary
There are plenty of typical words for the Shop dialect in particular, as well as for other western dialects in general. Some examples are: Shopski standard Bulgarian translation сакам (sakam) искам (iskam) to want чиним (činim) правя (pravja) to do/make прашам (prašam) питам (pitam) to ask чувам (čuvam) пазя (pazja) to keep, to upbring, raise (a child) спийем (spijem) спя (spja) to sleep тражим (tražim) търся (tǎrsja) to search оти? (oti?) защо? (zašto?) why? окам (okam) викам (vikam) to shout кошуля (košulja) риза (riza) shirt рипам (ripam) скачам (skačam) to jump мачка (mačka) котка (kotka) cat
=====================================================
Now it seems to me that almost everyone classifies a language by the Literary/Written language of a country to make comparisons and contrast, but completely ignore the SPOKEN dialects. This is quite obvious because SPOKEN dialects have no ARTIFICIAL borders unlike the written. So from what I can figure out is that in actuallity the West-Central Bulgarians and North-East Makedonjians as well as South East Serbians ALL SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE. The only difference comes down to the WRITTEN form which due to obvious historical reasons have been created to differentiate themselves from one another.
Once again MAKEDONJIAN = BULGARIAN.
This is not deniable when discussing the spoken dialects. So why is it so hard to admit for you MAKs to admit that your language and Bulgarian are the same, except when it comes to the Literary Written language which was created during the late 19th century and 1944.
|
|
|
Post by greekslav on Nov 17, 2007 22:23:51 GMT -5
The South Slavic languages consists of Slovene, Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian and Bulgarian. They are four different languages within one sub-group, but they all have similarities and differences. They are not dialects of one language. Dialects are actual differences within a language, not sub-group (i.e Western Macedonian vs. Eastern Macedonian). Those that mistakenly claim the Macedonian = Bulgarian are on their own anti-Macedonian agenda that really accomplishes nothing. www.bartleby.com/61/images/indoeuro.jpg
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Nov 17, 2007 23:26:44 GMT -5
The South Slavic languages consists of Slovene, Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian and Bulgarian. They are four different languages within one sub-group, but they all have similarities and differences. They are not dialects of one language. Dialects are actual differences within a language, not sub-group (i.e Western Macedonian vs. Eastern Macedonian). Those that mistakenly claim the Macedonian = Bulgarian are on their own anti-Macedonian agenda that really accomplishes nothing. www.bartleby.com/61/images/indoeuro.jpgThey are three languages within one sub-group (Montenegrin is at most a Serbian dialect).
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Nov 18, 2007 11:39:10 GMT -5
Montenegrin is just as much a language as is Serbian
And btw radobitch, not one montenegrin throughout history call their language serbian, read the texts of Andrija Zmajevic, Marko Miljanov, ect ect, they all call it "Naski".
|
|
Japodian
Senior Moderator
Aber dojde donke
Posts: 117
|
Post by Japodian on Nov 18, 2007 18:21:46 GMT -5
No matter I believe that any nation has the right top call their language as they want, the argument with "naski" [actually meaning "ours"] doesn't mean anything special. All other nations of central South Slavic group [Croats, Bosnians, Serbs] referred to their language as "naski".
|
|
|
Post by greekslav on Nov 18, 2007 21:17:45 GMT -5
Radovic wrote: "They are three languages within one sub-group (Montenegrin is at most a Serbian dialect).
And if that were true, then Bulgarian is a dialect of Russian.
I knew that comment was going to get you in trouble. Montenegrin is a language, not a dialect. A dialect usually refers to regional speech patterns of one language.
|
|
ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
|
Post by ioan on Nov 19, 2007 9:35:54 GMT -5
And if that were true, then Bulgarian is a dialect of Russian. Get over it! "Macedonian" was, is, will always be a Bulgarian dialect from linguistic point of view! There is a inscription from the niece of Samuel that states that he is Bulgarian. All "Macedonian" heroes considered themselves bulgarian.
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Nov 19, 2007 12:23:00 GMT -5
Montenegrin is just as much a language as is Serbian And btw radopregnant dog, not one montenegrin throughout history call their language serbian, read the texts of Andrija Zmajevic, Marko Miljanov, ect ect, they all call it "Naski". Lika Japodian said, Naski literally means nothing since all south Slavs referred to their language as such. Montenegrins and Montenegro throughout its history referred to the language as Montenegrin. The closest evidence Montenegrins have shown of a seperate language is King Nikola syaing Torlak dialect speakers can't speak Serbian properly -- that is not proof of a seperate language. Not only that but 19th century language textbooks for use in all schools in Montenegro said the language was Serbian. Montenegro's first constitution stated the language as Serbian. The term Montenegrin language didn't even exist until the early 1990s. Until 07 the government referred to the language as a Serbian dialect. Montenegrin language dictionaries aren't published in Montenegro. The language people learn in schools is "Mother language". Furthermore, the language hasn't even been standardized. Not even that but the reformer of the Serbian language was himself the descednant of Montenegrin immigrants and spoke the Montenegrin speech (not the Torlakian dialect then dominant in Serbian).
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Nov 19, 2007 12:25:17 GMT -5
Radovic wrote: "They are three languages within one sub-group (Montenegrin is at most a Serbian dialect). And if that were true, then Bulgarian is a dialect of Russian. I knew that comment was going to get you in trouble. Montenegrin is a language, not a dialect. A dialect usually refers to regional speech patterns of one language. B.S. Bulgarian has enough differences to distinguish it from Russian. Bulgarian has historical references. A Montenegrin language was made up by seperatist oriented Montenegrins in the early 90s. They're basis for this was dialectal differences. There is no historical mention of their language, unlike Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian(k).
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Nov 20, 2007 2:34:00 GMT -5
Serbs and Croats used the word "Naski" to describe their languages? Show evidence, even if it's true, Montenegrins used it Exclusively, although "Katunski" was used as well instead of "Naski" for Montenegrins, never Serbian.
Montenegrin language was not 'made up', i can say in the same vein that Serbian is a made up language as well.
Heres a little history lesson:
Srpski ministar Janjić o razgovoru sa Jelenom - kćerkom kralja Nikole, kraljicom Italije
- Nalazio sam se u Sofiji poslom i kad sam čuo, pripovijedao je Janjić - Lončareviću, da je talijanska kraljica u pohodu kod svoje kćeri, bugarske carice, odlučio sam da je posjetim i pozdravim. Primila me srdačno. Razgovarali smo dosta dugo. Iznenađen i oduševljen njenim dobrim srpskim jezikom rekao sam joj: “Veličanstvo, ja se Vama divim, što i sada, živeći dugo u Italiji, tako dobro govorite srpski”. Ona se na to digla, pružila mi ruku i na rastanku rekla: “Oprostite, gospodine ministre, ja ne govorim srpski, no crnogorski. Tako me je učio moj otac, crnogorski kralj Nikola.”
|
|
|
Post by greekslav on Nov 20, 2007 10:13:17 GMT -5
Looks like you're the one that needs to get over it. At least many of us knows the difference between languages and dialects. I think you need to review this a little more: www.bartleby.com/61/images/indoeuro.jpg
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Nov 20, 2007 14:06:02 GMT -5
Serbs and Croats used the word "Naski" to describe their languages? Show evidence, even if it's true, Montenegrins used it Exclusively, although "Katunski" was used as well instead of "Naski" for Montenegrins, never Serbian. Any source of it being called Katunski. Last time I checked Katunski Ora is the name of a Montenegrin dance. Not only that a search of "Katunski jezik" (Katunski language in Serbian/Montenegrin/Croat/Bosniak) comes up with 0 results on google. Same thing goes with "Katunski govor" (Katunski speech). There also is no result for "Katunski dijalekt" (Katunski dialect). Plus. I did provide proof. The schools in montenegro referred to the language as Serbian. Njegos called the language Serbian. The Petrovic Njegos family called the language Serbian. Source. As far as I know such a conversation never occurred.
|
|