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Post by greek1234 on Apr 22, 2008 1:38:08 GMT -5
The Byzantine empire was a Greek empire. The Albanians acquired the double headed eagle from the 'Greco-Rhomaio' at Constantinople. Now where us Byzantines acquired it from is another matter.
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Post by ilirian123 on Apr 22, 2008 7:10:39 GMT -5
The Byzantine empire was a Greek empire.
Yeah right, in your dreams...... The Byzantine people called themselves Romans although they were actually descendants of various ancient peoples .
Of cource you are going to say that they, under these lines are greeks:
Constantine the Great - Born in Moesia in 285. Reigned from 306-323 as joint emperor and then solely from 323-337 AD. He was the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity and established it as the preferred religion. Constantine defeated Maxentius in 312 to become sole ruler in the western province and defeated the joint emperor, Licinius, to become the sole Roman ruler. Constantine also moved the empire's capital to the Greek city, Byzantium and later renamed it Constantinople. After his death, Constantine's sons would also rule:
Constantine II (337-340)
Constans I (337-350) and
Constantius II (337-361)
ILLYRIAN-BYZANTINE EMPERORS
Justin I - Born of Dardanian peasants in 450 AD and ruled from 518-527 AD. Surprisingly elected to the throne at the age of 70 only because of his military expertise. Justin began to see a formidable threat against the Byzantium - the Slavs who began to settle on the empires borders. Justin would not live long enough to see the Slavic invasion dying of an illness in 527.
Justinian I - Born in 483 AD and appointed successor by his uncle Justin I. Justinian assumed the throne in 527 after Justin's death and would rule until 565. His reign was one of Imperial greatness as he recaptured much of the territory of the western empire that fell to the Germanic invaders and successfully kept the Slavs at bay. He also unified Roman laws into one code known as the Justinian code (civil laws). Unlike his illiterate Illyrian predecessors, Justinian had acquired an early education at Constantinople. Justinian was the last of the Illyrian emperors.
The fact that the Illyrians never recorded their history has left archaeology as the only key to unlocking the mystery that still enshrouds them.
As new evidence emerges such as the phallic artifacts found in Croatia, chapters on the Illyrian way of life are being rewritten as a people once bent on worshipping deities and symbols of fertility.
The Illyrians have been great generals ,not creative in art or architecture as the Greeks and Romans, but they are proving to archaeologists that their origins and culture expand beyond the bounds of an ordinary people, in turn, shedding new light on early European history.
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Post by Duke John on Apr 22, 2008 7:17:34 GMT -5
Ilirian! dont bother with this guy,he is the one who knew nothing about nothing before he joined these forums, he does not even propably know some of very basic things like when the term Bysantine came in use to refer East-Roman Empire.
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Post by greek1234 on Apr 22, 2008 8:00:36 GMT -5
"Byzantine history properly speaking is the history of the medieval Greek Empire" by George Ostrogorsky Pick up his book "History of the Byzantine State" you may learn something.
Byzantium was a continuation of the Hellenistic era the Romaoi where Greek Christians or Hellenized people. They all spoke Greek, the scripture and religion was Greek. I am very passionate on this issue please do not attack my Byzantine Heritage.
The East Roman Empire became Hellenic starting with the reign of Heraclius, when Greek replaced Latin completely in law and administration. During this period the Byzantines lost there non-Greek speaking territories in the near East and Africa to the Arabs. Let's not forget the whole of Anatolia excluding regions of old Armenia was speaking Greek, also the Southern Balkans before the Slavic and Turkic Invasions. The main language of the Eastern or Byzantine Empire had been Medieval Greek, spoken natively in Constantinople and the largest part of the empire. Medieval Greek was an evolution of Koine Greek. Also the exact time when the eastern Roman Empire became Byzantine/ Greek is debated it may have happened as early as the reign of Constantine the Great the first Christian Emperor or when Heraclius replaced Latin completely in law and administration. The later is what I personally believe.
Off course the Monarchy was mixed theres no denying that, that has been happening since antiquity what really mattered was they where Greeks or Hellenized. Just look at Julian I nicknamed the Apostate he acquired a liberal education in Athens for cultural purposes. He was portrayed on his coins with a "philosophers" beard. He was the last Pagan Emperor; the form of Paganism he followed was Neo-Platonism which had a metaphorical approach to the myths and legends of Greco - Roman tradition. Julian also sympathized with the Jews who called him Julian the Hellene. Also why would Emperor John III Vatazes in his correspondence with old Rome writes of his people as Hellenes.
The other kingdoms of Europe and the near east called the "Byzantines" Greeks. For example the Arabs stated that the "Byzantines" were the descendants of the ancient Greeks. Arabic sources indicate that the Arabs made no distinction between ancient and contemporary Greeks.The twelfth century Arab traveler Ibn Batuta stated the Emperor in Constantinople was the King of the Greeks. Now for some Europeans. Popes such as Stephen II, Hormisdas, John I, John III, Stephen III, Hadrian I state that the Byzantine Empire is 'Graecia', its emperors called Greek Emperor, and the Empire's inhabitants are designated as Greeks. Even Benjamin of Tudela a Spaniard Jew who traveled to the East in the 12th century stated the whole of the Empire including the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor is Greece. Constantinople "is the capital of the whole land of 'Javan', which is called Greece."
As for Greeks calling themselves Romans is really nothing. This meant Christian Greek. Greek was frequently used to describe the learning, language, and culture of their Empire.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 22, 2008 12:30:31 GMT -5
By various pretences and means, he collected money from everyone under his order and command, set up a list and used as a pretext for this arms buildup the fact that he intended to attack Bryennius as a renegade. Once he had ensured that he had indeed assembled a large army and forces fit for action, composed of Byzantine Greeks(Romaioi), Bulgarians and Albanians and of his own soldiers, he set off and hastened to Thessalonika... by Michael Attaleiates(11th century historian)
Ops who are these Romaioi?? ;D
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Post by atlantis on Apr 22, 2008 13:37:10 GMT -5
Modern Greeks call themselves "Hellenes," like the ancient Greeks did. The switch from "Romaioi" back to "Hellene," like the switch from "Vlach" to "Romanian," came from the politics of nationalism in modern times. Greeks needed Western European help to become independent in the early nineteenth century. The Greeks were not likely to attract assistance if the Western peoples thought of Greeks as Byzantines. However, if the Greeks were imagined as the children of Plato and Pericles, then the sympathies of educated Westerners, steeped in the Classical tradition, would be with Greece. In the Greek Revolution of 1832, the "Philhellenic"[Greek loving] sympathies of Britain and other European governments were deeply engaged. Intervention on behalf of Greek independence proved decisive. The name of "Hellene" was revived in order to create a national image which rejected the "Byzantine" past.
Conclusion The names by which things are called are important in shaping our interpretation of reality. People are often surprised to discover that historical labels which define the past are inventions of later scholarship and ideology, not parts of the past itself. Men and women of the Middle Ages did not know that they lived in the Middle Ages: people who lived in Classical Athens or Renaissance Italy suffered the same disability. The people of the "Byzantine Empire" had no idea that they were Byzantine. They regarded themselves as the authentic continuators of the Roman world: the Romans living in Romania.
John S.Romanides THE ROMANS.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 22, 2008 15:56:57 GMT -5
Come on Atlantis.What are you trying to say? The people of Byzanine Empire who spoke greek knew that they were descendants of the ancient Greeks : "Hellenes, as their race and language and education testifies"(Gemistos-Plethon to Palaiologos)... Thats why we still today sometimes call ourselves Romioi and our language Romaika. The term "Hellene" dispite the negative meaning that gained after the domination of christianity from the 10th century gained its ethnic meaning again till today. We are Romaioi and Hellenes as you can say that you are Arber and Skiptars, the difference is that the using of the two terms that we use are 100% justified in contrast to the unexplainable changing of your name.
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Post by greek1234 on Apr 22, 2008 19:11:18 GMT -5
Greek Culture properly speaking of the Middle Ages was that of Romanity (Greek Christianity). The ancient culture was very much alive to deny it would be very wrong. They spoke the language of Plato and cited Greek poets and philosophers and were at home among Greek ideas such as rhetoric and ethics. The history they remembered and the history they studied was that of the ancient Greeks; Herodotus, Thucydides, Polybios, Plutarch, the image they possessed of themselves had been molded by the language they spoke (Greek), the literature they read; Homer, Hesiod, Sophocles, Plato and the physicians and scientists they studied; Hippocrates, Archimedes, Hero, Ptolemeos, Strabo and many more from ancient times to their times. The Influential Church fathers such as the Cappadocians, the Alexandrians, the Antiochians and many ecclesiastical writers, including hagiologists, had been nurtured in an intellectual climate that had respect for both the Christian faith and Greek learning. St. Basil urged young students to study Homer because Homer's epics are full of ethical instructions that lead to the truth and virtue. Anna Komnene (who wrote one of my favorite books, the Alexiad) boasts about her Hellenic classical education. Michael Psellos, a philosopher and historian of the 11th century was another person conscious of the Greek nature of the Empire. When he attacks Herodotus, the son of Lykos, who dared to criticize his fellow Greeks and express his bias in favor of the Persians, Psellos writes as if Herodotus had insulted his own ancestors.
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Post by ilirian123 on Apr 23, 2008 4:33:37 GMT -5
The people of Byzanine Empire who spoke greek knew that they were descendants of the ancient Greeks.
It is true dhe offical language could have been greek, but not they all were greeks. ................ Anyway never mind your crap knowledge
St. Basil urged young students to study Homer because Homer's epics are full of ethical instructions that lead to the truth and virtue.
Do you really want to talk about Homer? Wellcome to the topic wich i can put you and your knowledge down with your Homer
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 24, 2008 4:14:41 GMT -5
The people of Byzanine Empire who spoke greek knew that they were descendants of the ancient Greeks.It is true dhe offical language could have been greek, but not they all were greeks. ................ Anyway never mind your crap knowledge You're right Albo, of course there were and other nationalities inside the Byzantine state,because it was comprised by a lot of today's states like those of all Balkans, Minor Asia,Middle East, Italy etc. But when Constantinoupolis lost the land of Middle East,Middle and North Italy,Northern Balkans Greeks-Romaioi made the great majority of the population, constided also the majority of the ruling class which survived till the Revolution in 21' like Kantakouzenoi,Stephanopouloi(from Komnenous) etc etc. Now if you are trying to say anything about the connection of Albanians with Byzantio its pointless because Albos are reffered not earlier than 11th century as simple mercenaries who helped Greeks to retake Dyrrachion(By the way do you know what Dyrrachio means?...). St. Basil urged young students to study Homer because Homer's epics are full of ethical instructions that lead to the truth and virtue. Do you really want to talk about Homer? Wellcome to the topic wich i can put you and your knowledge down with your Homer Homer is Turk...so leave the bulls**ts... ;D
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Post by filomen on Apr 24, 2008 5:21:01 GMT -5
During the 13 untill 1453 the byzantin empire reduce the border in this territory where the greec pop. was majoritar, so this influenced to rec.bizantine as a greec empire while regarding the conection of albanians with this empire, start from the beginig with Kostandin the Great till Justinian and allso diferent people was emperor like Erakles (african) BasiliII macedonian slav, Leon I Isaurian (kaukasian) Johan cimisca and Kantakusen were armenian and so on till 13 senturi with paleologos that was greec
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Post by filomen on Apr 24, 2008 5:24:11 GMT -5
also during the century we had others grec empeiors , Romano diogjen, Niqifor Foka, Botaniati, angelos family, komnenos family ect ect, but what I want to say they were other etnicity also
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Post by ilirian123 on Apr 24, 2008 5:45:38 GMT -5
What i don't understand is that some people keep mixing up Greek colonization with populations and nations beeing in differents part of Byzantine Empire. Because of Greece has almost an unbroken literary history and it has the longest documented history it doesn't make other nations inferior. Adoption of an alphabet from other nations is perfectly known in different periods of life from the BC centuries ...........................
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Post by filomen on Apr 24, 2008 5:53:25 GMT -5
greec alfabet derive from fenicas a semitic pop.
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Post by terroreign on Apr 24, 2008 5:56:30 GMT -5
"Byzantine empire was a greek empire" lol, not really
They were greek speakers, maybe, they mostly called themselves "romanoi" so much for hellens...
Not to mention the majority of high-ranking Byzantine people were non-greek, Like Basil the Macedonian, or Justinian, ect , ect
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Post by filomen on Apr 24, 2008 6:15:20 GMT -5
The greec at this age called themself as romanoi cose tecnicly was right they were the roman descendent cose the west was under the germans reigns but was called romanoi every pop. that was part of empire at this age while several principates that was indipendent like alb, principatese serbian reign and bulgarian reignwere just ex member of empire and not a dicsebdent of romans this reclame for the greecs fall when kostantinopoli fall. all the others things are just national propaganda as it is explain above from ilir1234
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 24, 2008 6:25:26 GMT -5
The fact that Sarkozy has Hungro-Jewish origins doesn't make French people less French. Byzantines called themselves Romaioi or Romioi just like we call ourselves now along with Hellenes. Romaioi citizens were all the citizens of the Empire but the Greek-speakers used this term(Romaioi) for ethnic definition as well as for linguistic,because Greek language many times is called Romaiika. If...by accident any time read an original Byzantine text you can easily see how the Romaioi who speak Romaiika(Ellhnika) distinguish themselves with a snotty way from the barbarians neighbors like "Alvana","Voulgaroi","Isauroi","Tourkoi",Armenioi" etc etc. Vasilios o Voulgaroktonos was surelly not a "Fyromian", he wouldn't slaughtered his people(Voulgarous) so easilly... Btw I've found my grandmother's surname in Alexiad, the man who had it was an officer of Komnenus ;D
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Apr 24, 2008 8:40:30 GMT -5
THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE WAS KNOWN AS EMPIRE OF THE GREEKS. GREEK TO THE CORE WITH MINORITY POPULATIONS OF SERBS, BULGARS, ARMENIANS.
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Post by terroreign on Apr 24, 2008 10:15:46 GMT -5
patrinos - Basil was a armenian.
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Post by atlantis on Apr 24, 2008 10:29:06 GMT -5
The very name "Byzantine Empire" was, in fact, coined as an insult. The phrase "Byzantine Empire" was coined and popularized by French scholars in the seventeenth century, long after the Empire had passed on into history. A major popularizer of the term "Byzantine" was Charles-Louis de Montesquieu, an influential figure of eighteenth century intellectual life. In truth, the people who lived in the "Byzantine Empire" never called themselves "Byzantine" as a national name. The word "Byzantine" found occasional employment to indicate an inhabitant of Constantinople, but to apply the name to the whole Empire would be analogous to calling all the French by the name "Parisian." In respective to their national identity, the people of the entire know themselves to be Romans, nothing more and nothing less.
Clifton R. Fox
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