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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 6, 2008 7:29:18 GMT -5
"The serbs were never much in fyrom (maybe at best 100000 northwest). All the others were pure Bulgarians. Maybe u should look at places were Serbs really do live, like Montenegro and Bosnia."
There are many historical quotes of serbs from kratovo, kumanovo, skopje, debar, tetovo etc....I don't think 100,000 is accurate, but l do think serbs make an important component of the slav vardar population. Yes the standard lanuage of vardarians is an extension of western bulgarian dialect and a beginner learning vardarian history for the first time would immediately think that by default that the population is purely bulgarian, however that is not entirely true. I have read that the culture of the vardarians is closer to the peoples of kosovo and montenegro and the mijaks who once inhabited albania were the link between the montenegrins and vardarians. Probably the Bulgarian component is the dominant one but its not an outright dominant one.
Let me ask you think ioan, why do the vardarians from bitola call the northern vardarians srbomani, western vardarian bulgarasi and some southern vardarians grkomani?
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 6, 2008 7:38:22 GMT -5
"he [Alexander] called out aloud to his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance in him" (Plutarch, Alexander, 51). You're so rigth, look what I found. ESTIN OUN SKOPJIA KAI H VOULGARIA " Josip Broz Tito, 1945. FYROM is also west Bulgaria ;D
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Feb 6, 2008 8:52:48 GMT -5
There are many historical quotes of serbs from kratovo, kumanovo, skopje, debar, tetovo etc.... Well there is historic references that Bulgarians lived in the town belgrade and ruled it but this DOESNT make this town Bulgarian and no one think it does. There are lots of references of Bulgarians living in Serbia, Greece, Turkey, but does this makes those lands Bulgarian? Deffinately no!!! So of course as a region near Serbia there were some Serbs living in FYROM. However not a single traveller/examiner etc. declares the fyrom people as Serbs (even your Serb traveller goes as far to say they are "slavs"). However all say they are Bulgarians and of course u have the "fyrom" heroes that have declared countless times that they are Bulgarian by origin. I think they are insignificant number. However I think that lately the Serb influence is very significant due to the political liedership. True I agree that at present the Serb cultural influence is significant. However before getting the vardar part I think the population was Bulgarian (with of course Serbs, Greeks, Albos, Turks living in Vardar). However the majority have always been Bulgarian. The "culture" is Bulgarian. Those songs are sung all over Bulgaria. We understand those words, they speak to us, we sing them. However I am not surprised that there can have some similarities between the cultures of fyrom and montenegro. But arent Bulgarian and Serbian culture very similar? Arent Greek, Serb, Bulgarian, Romanian even Albanian culture very similar? Of course they are, they have been connected and have been influencing each other for thousand years. So no I m not surprised, as I wont be surprised in the Serbian culture being similar to Bulgarian. So they are Bulgarians and everyone (except them and some Serbs) knows it. As I said of course Serbs have lived in Vardar but that people were always Bulgarian. Not only the northern ones but also the ones that served Yugoslavia passionately. Cause there is no difference with Bulgarians? Normally a small country could want to equvalent itself to the richest Balkan country with the oldest history. However those people are also Bulgarian.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 6, 2008 15:07:21 GMT -5
ioan is so funny and stubborn
First off child, Montenegro is montenegrin land, and the Mijaks are NOT bulgarians, and they are actually very close historically to us Montenegrins, you could even notice their hats are the same.
And Many Bulgarians on this site have already admitted that they can not quite understand Macedonian sometimes.
Ioan you're the only one still lying.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 6, 2008 21:54:21 GMT -5
"And Many Bulgarians on this site have already admitted that they can not quite understand Macedonian sometimes."
terro they can understand each other, lets be honest and no crap talk from you either.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 7, 2008 0:49:27 GMT -5
"Well there is historic references that Bulgarians lived in the town belgrade and ruled it but this DOESNT make this town Bulgarian and no one think it does."
Its a good point.
"However not a single traveller/examiner etc. declares the fyrom people as Serbs (even your Serb traveller goes as far to say they are "slavs")."
Lets be fair here ioan, most of these references come during the early to late 19th century when the exarchate was the major influence in the region.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 7, 2008 2:48:03 GMT -5
'terro they can understand each other, lets be honest and no crap talk from you either.'
Are you bulgarian? They said it themselves, if they can't clearly understand then that's that.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 7, 2008 8:09:54 GMT -5
"Are you bulgarian? They said it themselves, if they can't clearly understand then that's that."
They can understand each other more clearly than other south slavic lanuages, unless a vardarian speaks his torlakian dialect which is a serbian dialect.
What l'm trying to say to our bulgarian friend ioan, who l think is a reasonable person, is that because the vardarians speak a lanuage akin to bulgarian doesn't make them *all* necessarily bulgarian in origin. When the slavs first arrived in balkans (who were called in sources as the undifferential slavs) formed tribes in where they settled, some like the serverjani, or severci settled in what is now dobruja, the timocani in the region of the timok, the moravljani on the morava river, the brsjaci who inhabit prilep, veles and bitola, sagudati who inhabited the plain of salonica, the dragovic who settled in the western valley of the vardar river, velegostic settled in the western rhodope mountains, the velesic who occupied thessaly, the vojnic were from epirus, milinci from the taygetus plateau etc...would had spoken a lanuage initially akin to each other (from a common ancestor), why do l say this, well l say this because dispite emerging dialectal differences amongst them there have been found linguistic oases that have survived in the south balkans that resemble those of slovenia and koruska today(these were the lanuages that these slavs spoke before entering the balkans). During world war 1, Ljubomir Pavlovic discovered, in the slav villages around ostrovo, a lanuage group which resembles Slovenian, he believed that it was nearest to the slovenes. He had seen many slovenes from the serbian front who had no difficulty in conversing with these slavs. Moslems from meglen stated that they felt linguistically closest to the slovenian volunteers in the serbian army. An acquaintance of Mr Pavlovic who was from Edessa told him that a lieutenant colonel who was from slovenia in the serbian army had no trouble understanding him and that he understood this person better than he does with serbs or bulgarians. Slavic customs associated with weddings, slava, funerals, domestic and agricultural life are almost identical with those in the mountain villages of old serbia and montenegro.
There is evidence that among the slavs who were transferred to asia minor there were some who called themselves serbs. In 649, the emperor constantine 3 transferred a part of the slavs from the vardar to asia minor. There these migrants founded the city of GORDOSERVION, the name of which gives grounds for supposing that among its founders there were serbs. From the seventh to the tenth century, there were five such transfers of population. Between 1118 and 1143, the emperor John Comnenus resettled some of the serbs in the region of nicomedia.
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Post by grksdied4you on Feb 8, 2008 0:17:31 GMT -5
TerrorReign, Greeks are part Turkish??? Why is that? Your MonteNEGRIN. Are you part black??? NEGRIN IN MANY OR THE ROOT OF THE WORD STANDS FOR BLACK IN MANY LANGUAGES. Oh well what do I care. I don't even think I could find your glorious Montenegro on a map. Wonder why nobody ever bothered to learn about your glorious country. Look at the state of Greece today. IT DWARFS YOU, YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR COUNTRY IN JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN.
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Post by grksdied4you on Feb 8, 2008 0:18:28 GMT -5
Your such a dik.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 8, 2008 0:47:04 GMT -5
Why did we defeat you in Handball and Waterpolo then?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 8, 2008 1:05:15 GMT -5
Terro isn't montenegrin, his most likely some imposter!.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 8, 2008 3:13:37 GMT -5
Novi isn't serbian, he is a byzantine vassal!
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Post by grksdied4you on Feb 8, 2008 8:28:28 GMT -5
Oh, I didnt know that Terroreign! We must have been busy winning European championships for basketball and soccer. Anyways congratulations on your handball and waterpolo. In america we do not even consider those sports. But hey you get a one "at a boy."
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Post by terroreign on Feb 8, 2008 16:11:40 GMT -5
Soccer? Last I checked you guys sucked at that too.
In america they consider rugby to be football, and football to be 'soccer', there goes all the respect for sport in America.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 8, 2008 19:50:18 GMT -5
"Novi isn't serbian, he is a byzantine vassal!" I've got no problem with that ......but your an Albanian.
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Post by grksdied4you on Feb 8, 2008 22:49:23 GMT -5
Soccer? Last I checked you guys sucked at that too. In america they consider rugby to be football, and football to be 'soccer', there goes all the respect for sport in America. Terro, You are not worthy to speak of America. You are a fly in its buthole. So what do you do on Friday nights? Do you go out with your boyfriends and watch handball and water polo at the bar? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Your not even worthy to be called Euro Trash. Your just a racist loser who likes handball. Now to my balls.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 9, 2008 2:01:25 GMT -5
I am not worthy to speak of America? I am a citizen, it is my right.
On fridays I usually gang bang a bunch of greek chicks in fact, taking a raincheck tonight though ;P
I dont really like handball too much, but greeks sure do, and we're better than you at it.
I don't even think you are greek, you sound like a gay fireman.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 9, 2008 2:02:42 GMT -5
Novi, nice to see you are embracing that, you're a good pet to your masters.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 9, 2008 7:56:23 GMT -5
"Novi, nice to see you are embracing that, you're a good pet to your masters."
I like to align myself with the creators of cvilization, sciences etc...than with a people who deal with drugs, prostitution, weapon smuggling, pyramid schemes and faulty historical myth makers.
Understand!.
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