MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Apr 3, 2008 0:05:05 GMT -5
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Apr 3, 2008 0:41:05 GMT -5
greece needs to be put in its place because its acting like a spoilt brat. good move on germany's part. i support this initiative. hopefully greece will grow the fukk up, and stop hindering the republic of macedonia's bid to join NATO.
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Post by greek1234 on Apr 3, 2008 0:54:48 GMT -5
As long as these ex Communist countries spread anti Greek lies and propaganda they will suffer the consequences. Period.
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Post by yiannisss on Apr 3, 2008 1:15:20 GMT -5
Greece should be punished with sanctions if it blocks Macedonia's admission to NATO, German Green MEP Angelika Beer said in an interview for Deutsche Welle. I do not understand at all why a member-state should be "punished" for expressing its opinions on the matter, and for using a right that holds for more than 50 years as an old member of the Alliance. Oh wait, I just realized that this was a Slavomacedonian source...
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 3, 2008 2:22:08 GMT -5
To MiG and Tyson
if you ppl think we will not use a veto for our own national interest....than you are all high on crack !
Every country does it...except for weak ones without a backbone. Maybe thats why in WW2 most of you ppl quit against the germans while we were defiant against the most powerfull war machine at the time...
Bring on the pressure !!! We love it ! Only when we have pressure applied against us is when we excel beyond every expectation...It should happen more often ( our politicians are getting lazy ) Elladara Athanatoi
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Apr 3, 2008 2:48:31 GMT -5
regardless of all this talk about using VETO's etc ... i think in the 11th hour Macedonia will still be invited to join. Thats just my opinion.
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 3, 2008 3:52:25 GMT -5
i think you need smthg called " consensus "
Poland also used a veto against Russia in the EU. They were completely isolated...there was no apocolapse when that happened. Nothing will happen to Greece either.
That my friend...is all " talk "
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 3, 2008 7:44:17 GMT -5
1st I believe that Greece has every right to do what it is doing. (new state pops up out of nowhere claiming your heritage)
2nd Germany is showing it domineering nature yet again. (it is clear that EU is doomed long term as no one wants servitude)
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Post by Teuta1975 on Apr 3, 2008 21:38:28 GMT -5
It's not up to Greece to prevent the economic development of a country just because of the name they're using, simply because it makes Greeks believe it's a threat for the territorial integrity of their country.
I think it belongs to the historians and not to politicians and we shouldn't mix these two. NATO's countries shouldn't get involved in this issue, and Greece has enough historians in order to write history and fight for the issue, but again, not risking the economic integrity of one country.
It's Greece's right to require the change of name, but not by vetoing nor sanctions through NATO or EU...and not by economic threatening also...This issue (name change) it's Greece's and Fyrom's issue and NATO and EU shouldn't intervene unless there is a War (civil War or genocide there)...
If Greece wants Fyrom to pay a price for the choosing of the name because of whatever reason, then Greece should do the same.... (sanctions...)
Greece has every right to ask what is asking, but it should find the right way to do it!
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Post by Arxileas on Apr 4, 2008 0:11:43 GMT -5
It's not up to Greece to prevent the economic development of a country just because of the name they're using, simply because it makes Greeks believe it's a threat for the territorial integrity of their country. I think it belongs to the historians and not to politicians and we shouldn't mix these two. NATO's countries shouldn't get involved in this issue, and Greece has enough historians in order to write history and fight for the issue, but again, not risking the economic integrity of one country. It's Greece's right to require the change of name, but not by vetoing nor sanctions through NATO or EU...and not by economic threatening also...This issue (name change) it's Greece's and Fyrom's issue and NATO and EU shouldn't intervene unless there is a War (civil War or genocide there)... If Greece wants Fyrom to pay a price for the choosing of the name because of whatever reason, then Greece should do the same.... (sanctions...) Greece has every right to ask what is asking, but it should find the right way to do it! Tthe whole issue was a political one, right from the start, starting from Russia around 1880's.Greece didn't believe of a threat ? The threat of territorial claims was real, so in your minds eyes all those maps, schooling books and education "has nothing to do politically" ? Right ? Who controls and funds the education system of*given country ? .
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Post by Arxileas on Apr 4, 2008 0:13:21 GMT -5
Nova Macedonia = New country or nothing, they simply just don't have anything to do with that name.
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Post by Arxileas on Apr 4, 2008 0:35:51 GMT -5
Looks like Germany will just pull some strings. Besides shes right. Nationalist disputes should be left for UN at most, not NATO. I'm sure Germany thinks FYROM is EU material after the Swastika stunt... Also note we've been working with the U.N with no luck, Fyrom's government is naive not to compromise within the U.N as well. What else can we do ? They started calling them self’s as Macedonians Illegally as they agreed to the short term name Fyrom "pending" U.N sponsored name negotiations. These people had no plan to follow any agreements, even went to the extreme path of re-naming airports etc; which was in breach of the interim accord agreement signed by both Greece and Fyrom. .
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Post by yiannisss on Apr 4, 2008 3:01:33 GMT -5
It's not up to Greece to prevent the economic development of a country just because of the name they're using, simply because it makes Greeks believe it's a threat for the territorial integrity of their country. Prevent the economic development of a country was not the case. Greek veto after all stands only until the dispute gets resolved. Objecting about a country that does not share the organization's principles for peaceful and harmonic cooperation and coexistance was the case. It's Greece's right to require the change of name, but not by vetoing nor sanctions through NATO or EU... Greece has done so even since the early 90s. A UN sponsored agreement was made, and a UN sponsored effort to resolve the issue the soonest possible was started even since then. Greece since then has already compromised its initial stance on the name issue, but FYROM has not and the whole process has no progress for years and looks like completely abandoned! Furthermore during all these years FYROM is promoting its name in dispute around, it uses other names (Alexander, Pella, etc.) against the Interim Accord, and is practically loughing on the Agreement! I think that all these constitute unacceptable behaviur from a new country that wants to cooperate with other countries and worldwide organizations. And that the Greek veto was and is well justified until this behaviur changes. This issue (name change) it's Greece's and Fyrom's issue and NATO and EU shouldn't intervene unless there is a War (civil War or genocide there)... It is also a UN issue since the 90s. And I think that it is also a matter of those orgaizations which are about to start cooperating with this not cooperative (in our case) state. If Greece wants Fyrom to pay a price for the choosing of the name because of whatever reason, then Greece should do the same.... (sanctions...) Its not a matter or paying a prise for the name disagreement, as you presented it. It is a matter of protesting and requesting constructive cooperation for a UN sponsored dispute negotiation, until settling it out!
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Post by Kassandros on Apr 4, 2008 19:23:42 GMT -5
expatiot "Bring on the pressure !!! We love it ! Only when we have pressure applied against us is when we excel beyond every expectation...It should happen more often ( our politicians are getting lazy )" -------------------------------------------------------------- the trouth is... I have never seen PM and the rest of the political parties so united before in my life. Maybe we need some pressure afterall. It helps Hellenism Its like the ancient times.... war betwween city-states... but when a barbarian was near the border with bad intensions... all together one!
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Post by Teuta1975 on Apr 4, 2008 20:10:33 GMT -5
Arxileas wrote:
And what are the Greeks who live in fyROM? Aren't they Macedonians? Macedonia - again is a geographical and historical term. The ruins found in there belonged to those who inhabited the area once upon a time and the people who live in that area still call it the same...you should feel flattered...no matter who lives there and no matter how mixed the people are! But you want them to speak Greek if they want to call the place Macedonia...that's the point...who has claims? In general, when Slavs arrived in Balkans, they tended to change the names and make them Slavs...therefore Kosovo should remain Dardania and therefore America is called America no matter who lives there now...Greece may seem as having territorial claims instead...and fyrom-ians are seeking only identity.............still, it's not noble for Greece to pose economic threads and be so much afraid..... Greece is part of NATO; why then been afraid? If fyROM became member of NATO...so what? Does it mean for Greece that if it happens, Greece won't be able to ever "conquer" fyrom?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Apr 4, 2008 20:13:10 GMT -5
yiannisss wrote: Why not reach NATO first and then solve the "dispute"? Are Greeks gonna do the same when Albania joins EU? Are they gonna vote contra because of Epirus? Do they want to call the South Albania Epirus? Someone may claim: Greece will never do that...well...seeing now with fyROM and the latest example of Kosovo's independence recognition, I doubt it.....
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Post by yiannisss on Apr 5, 2008 5:08:58 GMT -5
Why not reach NATO first and then solve the "dispute"? The real question is, why reaching NATO or EU or whatever as long as they do not cooperate as per the Interim Accord as they should? And no. It has become evident that they do not wish to solve the dispute. Let's not forget that Greece had not objected when they joined the UN, because of their promises that they will cooperate in good will for solving the dispute! This is why their entrance was allowed by then, and how the Interim Accord was created! And what they do since then? They practically lough on their promise for cooperating and solving the dispute, and they lough on both Greece and the UN sponsored agreement! So, by reaching NATO now or whatever without solving the dispute first, they would only cement further their stance for letting the dispute for ever unsolved. Thank you very much. But enough is enough! Are Greeks gonna do the same when Albania joins EU? Are they gonna vote contra because of Epirus? Do they want to call the South Albania Epirus? Someone may claim: Greece will never do that...well...seeing now with fyROM and the latest example of Kosovo's independence recognition, I doubt it..... As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong), both Greece and Albania have abandoned their old expansion dreams on Vorio Epirus (or South Albania) and Chameria (or SouthWest Epirus) respectively, and they are looking only at the future. The only meaningfull demand now is the respect of the rights of the people. If Albania would not cooperate and was maintaining its old dreams on SW Epirus, threatening the Balkans stability again, then I think that it would worth all possible vetos! I imagine that Albania would think the same if Greece was maintaining its old dreams on Vorio Epirus, etc. Wouldn't it?
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Post by yiannisss on Apr 5, 2008 5:28:15 GMT -5
Does it mean for Greece that if it happens, Greece won't be able to ever "conquer" fyrom? You must be kidding, right? Greece has not any aspiration to conquer FYROM.
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Post by bb681 on Apr 6, 2008 17:02:30 GMT -5
In FYROM they normally talk so much that a lot of it is crap which is rarely heard internationally. Having said that,they wont(and cant) do anything significant for Greece to change its mind. They are therefore hoping for the west to do the convincing for them by playing the bullied-by-bigger-country card.I would guess though that Greece can always do the same if it ever gets pressurised by the EU/USA on this.
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