this is a question to every participants from ex yugoslavia plus rezus. here are some symple facts bulgarians first appearance in europe is yet in 3th century AD.in 354AD they have been mentioned in ,,anonimous roman chronograph''as a nation along with many of the other nations in ancient world. www.kroraina.com/armen/latin_chron.html in5,6and7 century AD bulgarians participated in series of miliary campaigns against eastern and western roman empires,in the begining of 7nt century they established theyr first empire[old great bulgaria],that after the hazar invasion splited in two-volga bulgaria and danubian bulgaria.those two states turned into empires them self......... tatars were one of the components of the mongol horde.theyr first appearance in europe was not untill 13 century.then they managed to conquer volga bulgaria only after two years of bloody war with bulgarians.after that war the bulgarian state was exterminated and half of volga bulgarians slaughtered. fortunately the bg culture in volga bg survived and even now the people in former volga bulgaria are divided on tatars and bulgarians.a very strong movement of volga bulgarians insists the name of the state to be changed from tatarstan into volga bulgaria.the leaders of the movement are pursued and even tortured by tatar authoritys. as you clearly can see the bulgarians are atleast 1000 years older nation than tatars.furthermore -they have long history of hostility and wars with tatars.so how can they be tatars
Bulgarians are Tatars for those FYROMians, who are brainwashed yanissaries.
The more interesting thing is why Bulgarians are said to come from Asia. This hoax was invented in the end of 18 century. 3 German "historians", paid by the Russian queen Ekaterina (she was of German origin) wrote, that the Bulgarians were not Slavs. This would mean, that because the culture of the First Bulgarian Empire is Slavic, therefore it is not Bulgarian. Therefore the Russians have taken their alphabet, language and religion not from Bulgarians, but from some neutral "Slavs".
In 19th century this myth was used by Serbian nationalists to prove that the people of Macedonia are not Bulgarians by origin, but only by consciousness. The people from Macedonia might be saying that they are Bulgarians, but they are wrong, because the Bulgarians were Asians etc.
Post by depletedreasons on Jun 3, 2008 5:34:35 GMT -5
Where do the Bolgars of the Volga come from? As early as AD 550, Gothic annals mention the Turkic tribes of Bolgars living to the north of the Black Sea. The powerful state of the Bolgars in the Black Sea area held out in the wars with Byzantium, but fell under the pressure of the Turkic Khazars, a vanished people, who dominated much of Eurasia in the seventh century. From the descendants of these tribes who went wandering over Europe came the Balkan Bulgars, the Volga Bulgars, and even the Caucasia tribes of Balkars, Kumyks and Karachaevs. The founders of modern Bulgaria, today's Tatarstan and neighbouring Chuvashia were, in the fifth to seventh century, one and the same people. Though the Balkan Bulgars, having accepted Christianty, soon lost their Turkic characteristics, nonetheless they preserved the old name of their country. The Kazan Tatars, on the other hand, preserved everything except their name. Such are the paradoxes of history.
Under the command of Bulgar [Turkic] boyars [Slavic word for military commanders or leaders] or Hunnic chieftains, they drifted even further southwest, forming what was to become a great Christian tsardom "Bulgaria". In the two centuries up to about 700, the south Slavic villagers in the lower Danube valley "Slavicized" their Turkic boyars, filled the countryside of what is modern-day Bulgaria, and founded a powerful Christian Bulgarian tsardom [W] and [MAP]
*--The Turkic Bulgars who did not move into the Danube valley, who held to the wild eastern steppes, eventually were pushed by Khazar expansion northward up the Volga valley in the lands around the city Kazan where they formed a significant Islamic or Muslim Bolgar khanate [W] =
*--Bolgar khanate is here spelled with an "o" to distinguish Danube Bulgars from Volga Bolgars on SAC
The Bulgars, a Central Asian Turkic tribe, merged with the local Slavic inhabitants in the late 7th century to form the first Bulgarian state. In succeeding centuries, Bulgaria struggled with the Byzantine Empire to assert its place in the Balkans, but by the end of the 14th century the country was overrun by the Ottoman Turks.
Since the middle of the VIIIth century the Turkic-speaking Bolgar tribes penetrated into the Middle Volga region. The most well-known among them are the Barandgars, the Bolgars, the Bersula, the Suvar and others, who came from the regions of the north-western pre-Caucasus as a result of the Arabian-Khazar wars of the 732-735. Nearer to the Xth century came the second wave of the Bolgar migration to the Middle Volga and the Kama region from the southern steppes.
Columbia Encyclopedia: Eastern Bulgars (bŭl'gärz, –gərz) , Turkic-speaking people, who possessed a powerful state (10th–14th cent.) at the confluence of the Volga and the Kama, E European Russia. The Bulgars appeared on the Middle Volga by the 8th cent. and became known as the Eastern, Volga, or Kama Bulgars. Another branch of the same people moved west into present Bulgaria and merged with the Slavs. The Eastern Bulgars accepted Islam in the 10th cent. From the 10th to the 12th cent. the Bulgar state was at the height of its power. Its chief city, the Great Bulgar, was a prosperous trade center. Destroyed by the Mongols in 1237, the state flourished again until it was conquered by Timur in 1361. It finally disappeared after its capture by the grand duke of Moscow in 1431. The modern Tatars and Chuvash may be descended from the Eastern Bulgars. The Great Bulgar and the Bulgars themselves are sometimes called Bulgari or Bolgari.
what kind of propaganda soup is inside your head. how come ,,bulgarians'' is a turkic name.?? ok -let me extend the question---how can bulgarians be tatars or turks if......at3-4 century AD they appeared in european political scene as roman chronograph states and in 6 century they had great empires NEITHER TATARS NOR TURKS HAVE EXISTED AT THIS TIME
Post by depletedreasons on Jun 3, 2008 8:29:33 GMT -5
Bulgar stems from the old Turkish word, "bulgamaq". This "verb" has different meanings, such as "to combine", "to stick", "to provoke", and "to mix". Same concept is also applicable for the "Avar", which means "Freeman", or the "Khazar", which means "Wanderer", Kazakh means "Independent", Suvar (Chuvash) means "Cavalry".
Nevertheless, the king of the Turkic Khazars explains the ancestry of these Turkic peoples quite clearly:
"You ask us also in your epistle: "Of what people, of what family, and of what tribe are you?" Know that we are descended from Japhet, through his son Togarmah.[In Jewish literature Togarmah is the father of all the Turks.] I have found in the genealogical books of my ancestors that Togarmah had ten sons. These are their names: the eldest was Ujur, the second Tauris, the third Avar, the fourth Uauz, the fifth Bizal, the sixth Tarna, the seventh Khazar, the eighth Janur, the ninth Bulgar, the tenth Sawir.[These are the mythical founders of tribes that once lived in the neighborhood of the Black and Caspian Seas.] I am a descendant of Khazar, the seventh son."
Bulgar stems from the old Turkish word, "bulgamaq". This "verb" has different meanings, such as "to combine", "to stick", "to provoke", and "to mix".
This is not true. The name "bulgar" comes from Bulgarian (Slavic) language. The L in the root was syllabic. Since I suppose that you don't know what a syllabic consonant is, here you have a link with information - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabic_consonant The L in "Bulgarian" was like the L in Czech "vlk" = "wolf". In old Bulgarian (9th century) the name was "bl'gari", later in different dialects it became "bugari", "bolgari" and "b'lgari". This develoment of the syllabic L is a characteristic of the Bulgarian language. There are no Bulgarian words of Turkic or Iranic origin which have developed in the same way.
.In Jewish literature Togarmah is the father of all the Turks.
These are their names: the eldest was Ujur, the second Tauris, the third Avar, the fourth Uauz, the fifth Bizal, the sixth Tarna, the seventh Khazar, the eighth Janur, the ninth Bulgar, the tenth Sawir.
Actually the manuscipt doesn't mention Bulgarians. There is said "b-l-g-d". Making "b-l-g-d" equal to "Bulgarian" is simply a guess.
This is the only source that you mention, this is why I comment it. You have pasted quotes from articles, but they are not sources. If you want to discuss other sources, I'm ready.
Since you mentioned the Volga Bulgarians, keep in mind that all of the authors, who speak about them before the Tatarian conquest, make a distinction between the Bulgarians and the Turkic people. The best source about them is Ibn-Fadlan, who speaks about Turkic tribes as being different from Bulgarians. He calls the Bulgarians "saqaliba", which was the Arabic word for "Slavs". Other Arabian authors, who mention the Volga Bulgarians, also call them "saqaliba".
think a while before act like machine. can you show me any evidence,any writen record where bulgarians describe them selfs as turks or as part of larger ethnic comunity called turkis people.even in this jewish mythical story the word turk or turkis is not mentioned even oncce dont let your antibulgarian feelings obsess you the therm,,turkis people'' is a scientific one.it is in use since 18 century.... so can you give me a proper answer or not
Post by depletedreasons on Jun 3, 2008 10:23:57 GMT -5
Since you like reading Wiki, I hope both of you would not mind reading a bit more. ;D
Qol Ghali (Tatar Cyrillic: Кол Гали, Latin: Qol Ğäli, Chuvash: Кул Али, Russian: Кул Гали, Kul Gali; circa 1183-1236) was a famous Muslim Volga Bulgar poet, the founder of medieval Tatar literature. His most famous poem is Qíssai Yosıf (Tale of Yusuf) written in mediæval Turkic literature language.
It is believed, that he was born in what is today Eastern Tatarstan. He studied in Khwarezmean madrassah. He wrote his immortal poem in 1233. In 1236 we was probably killed during the Mongol invasion of Volga Bulgaria.
His poems are celebrated by Tatar people and Chuvash people. His most famous poem is Qíssai Yosıf (Tale of Yusuf) written in mediæval Turkic literature language, which is not mutually intelligible with modern Tatar and Chuvash languages, however, related to the literary language of Turkic Muslims, used until the 20th century among educated persons.
The poem is inspirited by Biblical-Qur'anical legends about Joseph. The poem is devoted to the struggle against an evil and for the human happiness. The poem took a major role in the Muslim Volga Bulgar and later Tatar culture. More that 200 manuscripts were found among the Tatars. The first time the poem was prepared for publishing by poet Utız İmäni and printed in 1839 by Räxmätulla Ämirxanov. Since that it was 80 times republished.
Qol Ghali award
The Qol Ghali International Award is named after Qol Ghali. It is given to recognize excellence in literature and poetry. The award was established in 1992. 
Bulgar (also Bolğar and Proto-Bulgarian) was the language of the Bulgars, now extinct. Its classification is somewhat controversial: the most widely accepted theory places it among the Turkic languages, but some Bulgarian historians link it to Iranian language group instead (more specifically, the Pamir languages are frequently mentioned). Other Bulgarian historians only point out certain signs of Iranian influence without drawing such conclusions from them (of the linguistic evidence only the Iranian origin of the name Asparukh seems to withstand scrutiny - see Schmitt 1985 for a critical assessment by an international Iranologist). Still others assume an intermediate stance or indeed actively oppose the "Iranian" theory. Bulgar is assumed to have been used in Great Bulgaria, later in Volga Bulgaria, as well as in Danubian Bulgaria. The language became extinct in Danubian Bulgaria in the 9th century as the Bulgar nobility became gradually Slavicized through intermarriages with the Slavic majority there. In Volga Bulgaria, it persisted longer (according to the prevalent theory of its Turkic affiliation) and ultimately gave rise to the modern Turkic Chuvash language.
The language of the Danube Bulgars (or Danube Bulgar) is recorded in a small number of inscriptions, which are found in Pliska, the first capital of Danube Bulgaria and in the rock churches near the village of Murfatlar, Romania. Some of these inscriptions are written with Greek characters, others with runes similar to the Orkhon script. Most of them appear to have a private character (oaths, dedications, inscriptions on grave stones) and some were court inventories. Although attempts at decipherment have been made, none of them has gained wide acceptance. These inscriptions in Danube-Bulgar are found along with other official ones written in Greek. The rulers of the First Bulgarian Empire preserved Greek as the official state language until the 9th century when it was replaced by Old Bulgarian.
The language of the Danube Bulgars is also known from a small number of loanwords in the Old Bulgarian language, as well as terms occurring in Bulgar Greek-language inscriptions, contemporary Byzantine texts, and later Slavonic Old Bulgarian texts. Most of these words designate titles and other concepts concerning the affairs of state, including the official 12-year cyclic calendar (as used e.g. in the Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans).
The language spoken by the population of Volga Bulgaria is known as Volga-Bulgar. There are a number of surviving inscriptions in Volga-Bulgar, some of which are written with Arabic characters, alongside the continuing use of Turkic runes. These are all largely decipherable. That language persisted until the 13th or the 14th century. It adopted a number of words and constructions from the Kipchak language and ultimately gave rise to the Chuvash language. Chuvash is classified as the only surviving member of a separate "Oghur-Turkic" branch of the Turkic languages, characterized by sound correspondences such as Bulgar r versus Common Turkic z and Bulgar l versus Common Turkic š. Likewise, the Old Tatar language, despite not belonging to the same branch as Chuvash and Bulgar, is believed to have absorbed elements of the Bulgar language; thus, the language spoken by the present-day Volga Tatars would represent a mixture of Kipchak and Bulgar.
It is thought that the territory of Volga Bulgaria was originally settled by Finno-Ugric peoples. The Turkic Bulgars moved from the Azov region in about AD 660, commanded by Kotrag, Kubrat's son. They reached Idel-Ural in in the 8th century, where they turned to the people dominant it the end of the 9th century and united other tribes of different origin, which lived in the area. Some Bulgar tribes, however, continued westward and after many adventures settled along the Danube River, in what is now known as Bulgaria proper, where they merged with the Slavs, adopting a South Slavic language and the Eastern Orthodox faith.
Most scholars agree that the Volga Bulgars were subject to the great Khazarian Empire. Sometime in the late 9th century unification processes started, and the capital was established at Bolğar (also spelled Bulgar) city, 160 km south from modern Kazan. Most scholars doubt, however, that the state could assert independence from the Khazars until the latter were annihilated by Svyatoslav of Rus in 965.
Post by depletedreasons on Jun 3, 2008 10:25:35 GMT -5
The Turkic languages are clearly interrelated, showing close similarities in phonology, morphology, and syntax. Historically, they split into two types early on, Common Turkic and Bolgar Turkic. The language of the Proto-Bolgars, reportedly similar to the Khazar language, belonged to the latter type. Its only modern representative is Chuvash, which originated in Volga Bolgarian and exhibits archaic features. Bolgar Turkic and Common Turkic differ in regular phonetic representations such as r versus z and l versus š—e.g., Chuvash ser versus Turkish yüz ‘hundred'; Chuvash sul versus Turkish yaš ‘age.' Chuvash and Common Turkic are not mutually intelligible. Of the Common Turkic languages, Khalaj displays a greater number of archaic features than any other language.
Post by depletedreasons on Jun 3, 2008 10:29:10 GMT -5
Chuvash language [CHOO-vahsh] (Чăваш чěлхи, also known as Chuwash, Chovash, Chavash or Çuaş) is a Turkic language spoken west of the Urals in central Russia. It is the most divergent of all the Turkic languages. Chuvash is the native language of the Chuvash people and an official language of Chuvashia. It is spoken by about two million people.
The Chuvash alphabet uses the Cyrillic script, comprising all letters used in Russian plus four extra letters.
Modern Chuvash Alphabet
А Ă Б В Г Д Е Ё Ě Ж З И Й К Л М Н О П Р С Ç Т У Ÿ Ф Х Ц Ч Ш Щ Ъ Ы Ь Э Ю Я а ă б в г д е ё ě ж з и й к л м н о п р с ç т у ÿ ф х ц ч ш щ ъ ы ь э ю я
The most ancient writing system was Runic, which disappeared after the Volga Bulgars converted to Islam. Later, Arabic was used. After the Mongol invasion, writing disappeared. Occasionally, runic script was used. The modern alphabet was created in 1873 by I. Ya. Yakovlev. In 1938, the alphabet underwent a significant modification to its current form.
There‘s also Latin variants of Chuvash Alphabet, which are also used nowadays, but no official Latin script exists as it is not allowed in Russia for minor languages to have Latin alphabets officially. However, for the sake of making it convenient for English-speakers and those who don't know Cyrilllic letters we'll use CVLat, that is Chuvashized Latin Script on this site and Chăvashtet:
ah what a surprise-a karachai balkar.i thought u r some brainwashed makedonian.ok this fact changes everything.for sure. you must know that i consider you -people of same ancestry ,if not fellow countrymen.i am serious.about the language -i agree that ancient bulgarian language was part of the same group of languages that today is called ,,turkis group''.only i think that there is no any ground to speak about turkis languages and turkis people in 6 century furthermore in4 or3 century.bulgarians never called them selfs turk-never ever.earlyer turks came in asia minor yet in 10 century,much later they found the otoman empire.and since this empire was huge and great the scientists from 18 cent .named every common people and languges turkish.can u get my idea now.... u can guess that as a christian bulgarian i am extremly antiturkis
If the Bolgars weren't Turkic, then why the "famous Bulgar calendar" (similar to Chinese) was written with all Turkic names, such as suchkan , tilki, djilan?
1. Even if the calendar has anything similar to Chinese, nobody has proven it. Nothing is known for sure about this calendar, even if it existed.
2. What is known are a couple of words, which are used to name years. None of them is suchkan, tilki or djilan. Don't make up words to prove your point.
3.The language in which the source was written is Bulgarian:
If those proto-Bolgars were not Turkic, why they had titles like "Khan" and believed in "Tangri" or "Tangra"?
They didn't have title Khan and didn't believe in Tangra. If you think they did, you can probably find a source that proves it. I repeat - not an article from an encyclopedia, but a real historical source. The source from above, the "Imennik", calls the Bulgarian rulers "kniaz".
Slavic, Thracian or Germanic peoples never used such Turkic words.
Post by depletedreasons on Jun 4, 2008 3:58:29 GMT -5
Even the Danube Bulgarians do not reject what you seem to reject. ;D The Turkic anthropological type and the Turkicness of the Proto-Bulgarians have not been questioned. The linguistic data in the Namelist of the Bulgarian rulers, in the Byzantine written sources as well as the Proto-Bulgarian stone inscriptions are given as an irrefutable evidence to that. The Turkic names, phrases and words they contain, leave little room for discussion.
A number of Middle Asian elements in the material culture of the First Bulgarian kingdom, such as the 12-year cyclic animal calendar, the cult of Tangra, etc., all with undeniable analogies in the culture of the Turkic khaganate, are also brought forward .
karachai-are you living in turkey by the way.just wonder why u put ur turkness over ur bulgarness.so what are you-more turk or more bulgarian. dont be so hurry to celebrate victory couse the things you know are only a part of the truth and not whole truth. edlund is absolutly right when say that there are no proofs about the tangrism of the old bulgarians.furthermore -first bg khans ,including kubrat were christians and this is well proven fact
karachai-are you living in turkey by the way.just wonder why u put ur turkness over ur bulgarness.so what are you-more turk or more bulgarian. dont be so hurry to celebrate victory couse the things you know are only a part of the truth and not whole truth.
edlund is absolutly right when say that there are no proofs about the tangrism of the old bulgarians.furthermore -first bg khans ,including kubrat were christians and this is well proven fact
Yes, I live in Istanbul. However, my grand grand fathers emigrated from "Great Bolgaria" in 1860s due to the escelated Russian offenses affecting the whole region.