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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Aug 31, 2009 20:56:57 GMT -5
Well if this hypothesis is true it would mean you could safely lump I2a2 in with R1a as the main haplogroups that came with the slavs. This would make a lot of sense in terms of figures & push all south slavs over 50% migratory for lack of a better term. It would make sense in the overall context of most historical perspectives. Someone dig up some graves already. Haplogroup I2a2 is the holly grail!
Your point about I2a2 being only 3000 years old would not exclude it from being Illyrian though. And from the sources I've read it's 8000 years old.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 1, 2009 22:15:18 GMT -5
Srbobran?
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Post by srbobran on Sept 1, 2009 22:46:43 GMT -5
See, but your entire theory is based on an unknown pretense, that Albanians are the descendants of the Illyrians. Your entire point hinges on the far from conclusively proven notion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the Illyrians. Since we don't know, as an even almost absolute fact that Albanians are the direct descendants of the Illyrians, we can't say that a high I2a2 frequency means a high percentage of Slavic genes. The highest frequency and diversity of Haplogroup I2a2 among populations of the Western Balkans lends support to the hypothesis that the Adriatic region of modern-day Croatia served as a refuge for populations bearing Haplogroup I2a2 during the last glacial maximum. The subclade divergence for P37.2 occurred 10.7±4.8 kya (Rootsi 2004). The age of YSTR variation for the P37.2 subclade is 8.0±4.0 kya (Rootsi 2004). The age of YSTR variation for the M423 subclade is 8.8±3.6 kya (Underhill 2007). Pericic places its expansion to have occurred "not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic” (Pericic 2005).Taken from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA)#I2a2There you go, the "Serb gene" (m432 subclade) began its expansion in the early Neolithic at the latest. The scientists are in brackets beside most of the statements given in the excerpt.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 2, 2009 0:04:06 GMT -5
Albanians are autochthonous, call them what you want. They didn't come from anywhere else. That is a pretence but it is far from the basis of the entire theory. Even most Serbian language sources say they are Illyrians so get over it. Illyrians doesn’t mean sh!t to their political claims anyway imo but that’s another story. I think you may be pretending not to see the overall picture here.
What about the fact that its next highest occurance is the proto slavic lands? Imo the proper way to look at it is where it actually occurs in its highest numbers, not where it is as a percentage of the present population. If it started in the Balkans why are there more overall I2a2's in the proto slavic & slavic lands? This puts the description of "highest frequency" into another perspective. Also the "frequency" of its older offshoot (I2b1) occurs further north as well. And I really don't get the part about "diversity." What are they talking about? You can see that the best diversity is actually shown in the proto slavic lands where you get both I2b1 & I2a2. This would suggest that the proto-slavic basin is actually the source would it not? Look at the haplogroup I tree. You have I2b in the middle. Funnily enough it occurs most through middle Europe with a specific offshoot in the slavic basin. On the other side you have I1 & it's in northern Europe. Again on the other side you have I2a2 & it's in the Balkans. It's almost too perfectly explained.
PS Pericic is a dick. The fact he claims it as a Croat haplogroup when it's higher in Bosnia by his own research & mostly carried by Serbs shows his bias. Like wtf. And whats this about I2a2 having a refuge in the Balkans during the last glacial maximum when it was born in the neolithic?
I am really starting to believe that this theory is true!
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Post by srbobran on Sept 2, 2009 22:54:29 GMT -5
Alright, let me clear this up. My support of the whole "Illyro-Thracian-Serb connection" has nothing to do with Kosovo or anything like that. The fact of the matter is, even if we were in the historical wrong (which I certainly don't think we are), I would support Serbia and her interests. Next, just about all scholars say that the Albanians origins are a mystery. Wilkes, a leading figure on Illyrian studies doesn't believe that the Albanians are the direct descendants of the Illyrians (rather he believes the Dinaric Serbs, Croats etc. are). Coon, a source you quoted said something along the lines of the short, dark Albanians certainly doesn't have his origins in the Illyrian peoples. There is alot of controversy over Albanian origins and as far as they go, nothing is certain, yet. The presence in the proto-Slavic lands can, as the scholars i cited above, be attributed to Neolithic expansion. A source that I believe you yourself used also says the same: www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtmlI2 => 17,000 years ago (in the Balkans) I2a2 => 7,500 years ago (in the Dinaric Alps) Interestingly enough, the same site also writes this: E-V13 => 10,000 years ago (in the Balkans) According to the map Pyrros posted, this has a very high concentration among Serbs as well and it too is a native, Balkan gene. In regards to "diversity", he's talking about subclades I believe. Well, there's another (non-Serb/Croat/Bosniak sounding name) scientist in the source I provided as well. As for Pericic being a dick, I dunno, him claiming it as a Croat haplogroup is a strictly political and I don't see how it would discredit his scientific work. He's saying I2a2 was formed during the last glacial maximum but it expanded before the early Neolithic.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 2, 2009 23:22:02 GMT -5
Alright, let me clear this up. My support of the whole "Illyro-Thracian-Serb connection" has nothing to do with Kosovo or anything like that. The fact of the matter is, even if we were in the historical wrong (which I certainly don't think we are), I would support Serbia and her interests. Next, just about all scholars say that the Albanians origins are a mystery. Wilkes, a leading figure on Illyrian studies doesn't believe that the Albanians are the direct descendants of the Illyrians (rather he believes the Dinaric Serbs, Croats etc. are). Coon, a source you quoted said something along the lines of the short, dark Albanians certainly doesn't have his origins in the Illyrian peoples. There is alot of controversy over Albanian origins and as far as they go, nothing is certain, yet. My attitude towards Illyrians is that they were probably not homogenous. If Albanians were Illyrians, it definately does not mean that all Illyrians should be considered Albanians since they were separate tribes anyway. Whatever they are they are pretty much autochtonomous. Are you really going to believe that they came from somewhere else like the Caucuses but not that slavs came from the proto-slav lands? Label them & call them what you will but they are autochtonomous and a very good benchmark. That's the whole thing I'm disagreeing with here. It makes no sense. Just saying it's so doesn't make it true. It just sounds like a politically motivated assumption & I've given plenty of reasons above why I think it started in the proto-slavic lands. I'm not disputing the scientific work (ie the figures). I'm disputing the interpretation. Yeah exactly & it makes no sense because as you can see 7500 years ago was in the neolithic, not the last glacial maximum. Duh.
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Post by insomniac on Sept 3, 2009 0:25:51 GMT -5
Albanian mystery is pretty much solved. It has nothing to do with being autochtonous since the dispute is whether Albanians are Illyrians or Dacian and Thracian. And most likely we were an eastern Illyrian tribe living in present-day Serbia. We got pushed down to present day Albania by the oncoming Slavs during the 5th - 9th century. It aso explains why southern Albania has more slavic typonyms than mountainous areas of northern Albania. As a result of Bulgarian expansion. Anything more than that(caucasus) is politically motivated and not supported by any logical evidence such as migration patterns. Not that there is anything wrong from being from that area.
I posted some maps awhile ago in the wrong thread but i deleted them b/c arsenije requested it. That to me sounded like the most logical theory.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 3, 2009 0:29:45 GMT -5
I agree with all that except the getting "pushed down" part which is totall BS. Serbs & Arbanasi lived side by side.
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Post by insomniac on Sept 3, 2009 0:42:07 GMT -5
Im talking about the period of pre-slavic moesia we were located most likely in present day Serbia. After that obviously we lived side by side.
It seems to me that Albanians took refugee in the mountains of northern Albania. And from there we expanded south. Im wondering why do you disagree with that?
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Post by srbobran on Sept 3, 2009 0:43:33 GMT -5
Whatever. I really don't know about the Albanian origins. I mean, there like a 800 year gap and that's pretty hard to account for. I don't see why "eupedia" would be politically motivated towards Serbs.
I really wish they just did DNA tests on the Illyrian remains we have and then we could just be done with the matter!
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Post by insomniac on Sept 3, 2009 0:45:31 GMT -5
srbobran, the illyrians were a diverse people. Illyrians living in the dinaric ranges of Croatia were not the same as Illyrians living in Southern Albania.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 3, 2009 2:37:51 GMT -5
I subscribed to some board & then got this random email... Trust me people it's coming. I2a2 is the proto-slav Dinaric haplogroup. We're all going to be happy except the wannabe slav Illyrians. ------------------------------------------- I will explain my theory in an extensive form when i will have more free time to jump into long discussion. I have explained some of my arguments in this thread of DNA forums (please feel free to check my posts under nikcname Heimdale). dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=8312&st=40dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=8312&st=20A longer discussion on this topic can be found on Molgen forums (unfortunately, it is entirely in Russian) forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,494.0.html On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Ken Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > A paper and phylogenetic tree on this conclusion would be most interesting. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wadim Werenicz-Stachowski" <werstachowski@gmail.com> > To: <Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 3:17 AM > Subject: [yDNAhgI] I2* Italy/Anatolia? > > > > My phylogenetic reconstructions show that Slovakia/western Ukraine > > (more precise area is the region of Carpathian mountains and perhaps > > even > region > > of the former "Great Moravia") is likely to be the place, where the > > "original population of I2a2-Din" lived prior to the Balkan migration. > > > > Sincerely > > > > Vadim Verenich > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 3, 2009 2:41:22 GMT -5
Seems my prediction is coming true...
-----------------------------------------------------
Even the very simple and old map of HgI distribution from Wikipedia (see Haplogroup I) puts the second (after "yugoslavian" "hotspot" in region of Moldova). However, in more recent geneographic studies of G.Balanovsky this "moldovian" hotspot has been shifted in northern and western direction. Now it "covers" not only Moldova and the southern part of Ukraine, but the western part of Ukraine as well.
Sincerely,
Vadim Verenich
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 3, 2009 2:50:23 GMT -5
Good job Arsenije!
PS I like Verenic's signature as well: "ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα", it comes from Socrates and means "one thing i know, that i know nothing"
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 3, 2009 3:24:44 GMT -5
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Sept 3, 2009 3:55:30 GMT -5
Yes is true ancestors of Albanians and ancestors of I2a2 lived side by side.
I2a2 lived mostly North Balcan (North Romania) and Central Europe while Albanians mostly around Balcan.
I believe most owners of I2a2 were mostly vllachs due of historic facts (note: have many theories of Serbian/Croatian/Bosnak scholars who claim being of vllach origin...even your famous historian Vuk Karaxhic claimed)
In Albania, I2a2 mostly found in Vllach Miniority and South Albania...we know there had settler of vllachs.
Also acroding Romanian gen-antropologist Alexander Varzari I2a2 found high mostly in Vllachs all arounds in Balcan.
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