ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on May 3, 2009 0:30:09 GMT -5
the right answer is: your grandpas used to identify as Bulgarians.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on May 3, 2009 0:38:16 GMT -5
the right answer is: your grandpas used to identify as Bulgarians. My grandfather Dimitrije Nikolic is from Vranje, he used (he passed away) to speak Torlak and he declared himself as Serbian, his father Jovan too. Our Krsna slava is Sveti Nikola. Do you have anything to add?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on May 3, 2009 0:50:15 GMT -5
Yes, your grandpas were obviously exceptance of that rule. Just check wikipedias link on the Torlakians: According to some authors during the Ottoman rule, the majority of native Torlakian Slavic population did not have national consciousness in ethnic sense. Therefore, both, Serbs and Bulgarians, considered local Slavs as part of their own people, while local population was also divided between sympathy for Serbs and Bulgarians. Other authors from the epoch, take a different view and maintain that during the Ottoman rule the inhabitants of Torlakian area had begun to develope predominantly Bulgarian national consciousness. The first known literary monument, influenced by Torlakian dialects is the Manuscript from Temska Monastery from 1762, in which its author, the Monk Kiril Zhivkovich from Pirot, considered his language as: "simple Bulgarian".[1] In the 19th century the region was one of the centres of Bulgarian national revival and was included at a whole in the Bulgarian Exarchate (1870-1878). It was also stipulated the area to be ceded to Bulgaria according to the Constantinople Conference in 1876 and most of it according to the Treaty of San Stefano in 1878. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlaks
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on May 3, 2009 1:07:15 GMT -5
According to some authors.............usually Bulgarian authors.
About that priest. In Serbia priests, at that time, ( and intellectuals ) were not speaking "peoples" language but Slaveno Serbski which is mixture of peoples language and old Slav (similar to Russian). I guess it was same/similar for Bulgarian monks.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2009 1:19:40 GMT -5
"Our Krsna slava is Sveti Nikola."
Mine as well ;D
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on May 3, 2009 1:20:31 GMT -5
old slav(ic)=Bulgarian, and no, the language was called Bulgarian.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2009 1:22:54 GMT -5
^ Ioan my friend, you are tredding now in very dangerous waters, with that statement above lmao
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 3, 2009 1:27:14 GMT -5
Hey how can old slavic=bulgarian, when the first proto-serbs slavs arrived in balkans 150 years before the rest?
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on May 3, 2009 1:34:55 GMT -5
This is more likely Russian then Bulgarian, it is written in Slaveno Serbski by montenegrin royal office:
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ioan
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Post by ioan on May 3, 2009 1:37:39 GMT -5
because the first slavic language that was codified, in which the bible was translated was: 1. the slavic language from Thesaloniki; 2. the slavic language was what it would become Bulgarian; 3. the slavs there are from the Bulgarian slav sugroup as opposed to the serbo-croatian subgroup; Old Church Slavonic, also known as Old Bulgarian,[1][2][3][4][5] or Old Macedonian,[6][7][8][5] was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Solun dialect of the Thessalonica region by the 9th century Byzantine Greek[9] missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius, who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings. It played a great role in the history of Slavic languages and served as a basis and a role-model for later Church Slavonic traditions, where Church Slavonic is used as a liturgical language to this day by some Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches of the Slavic peoples. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 3, 2009 1:38:16 GMT -5
Yes, your grandpas were obviously exceptance of that rule. Just check wikipedias link on the Torlakians: 1) Ioan, (talking about languages) the correct word is "Exception" not exceptance. 2) Languages as human constructs EVOLVE Serbo-Croatian is the most evolved slavic language with SEVEN cases. No doubt Ancient Serb language which is still spoken by proto-serbs in South Serbia, FYROM (Skoplje) and Western bulgaria, was much simpler. also, how about in parallel with the genetic comparisons that Srbobran brings into account, how about some other metrics, like average height of adult males for instance. Taking into account that Torlaks/Bulgs live in the same conditions in nearby lands, some body metrics would shed some light as well.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on May 3, 2009 4:01:04 GMT -5
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2009 4:36:39 GMT -5
Your basically correct about a language evolving, Ioan mentioned in the Epirus thread that Bulgarian Language was much closer to serbian in the beginnings. The vardarian language in terms of its morphology and Etymology is serbian or serbo - croat!.
In 1835, for example, a Bulgarian grammarian, Neofit Kilski, observed that the appearance of the dj and c in the vardarian dialects was a serbian feature.
Pyrro, ask Ioan this question, why is there no infinitive of the verb in Bulgarian, but in both vardarian and serbian there is!. You can also ask him why there is no present participle of the verb in Bulgarian, whereas it exists in both vardarian dialects and in serbian, and you can tell him that the some of the tenses (present, imperfect, aorist, future) of the verbs are not formed in the same way in Bulgarian as it is in vardarian or serbian.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on May 3, 2009 5:11:41 GMT -5
So there are 2-3 Serbian features after u brainwashed them for over 100 years BUT we should CLOSE our eyes BEFORE EVERY SANE LINGUIST WHO CLASSIFY FYROM AS BULGARIAN DIALECT? novi you are not even fun.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2009 8:15:43 GMT -5
^ o.k, then l will show more ;D......ioan, how did serbs brainwash the vardarians, when one: the exarchate warped the people, then two: the communists invented a new identity for them.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 3, 2009 8:50:56 GMT -5
Novi, ioan is a supporter of the strategy that he should repeat the same story over and over again, selectively never replying to certain challenges and so on.
Vardar region didn't spend more than 10 years free since liberation of the turks and until they fought AGAINST the bulgarians in Balkan Wars/WWI... Their argument about brainwashing is iteratively idiotic.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 3, 2009 8:53:31 GMT -5
i agree. Modern greek sucks compared to ancient. Our cases are reduced to 4, compared to the FIVE of ancient greeks. My dream is to see this language, ancient greek all over greece, again. It is simply superior, and more Lakonian. Example: Ancient Dorian: i tan i epi tas Ancient Ionian: i tin i epi tis Modern Greek: i aftin i epano se aftin (dativa missing...) PS Friend Ioan, let me tell you, it is not "DEFY" but "DEFINE".
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ioan
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Post by ioan on May 3, 2009 9:24:55 GMT -5
pyrro I think you are mistaking your strategy for mine. And please read some unbiased (should be read as non Serb or non Yugolsav) sources on fyrom and then come back to discuss it.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 3, 2009 9:33:35 GMT -5
"And please read some unbiased (should be read as non Serb or non Yugolsav) sources on fyrom and then come back to discuss it."
and non-bulgarian? ha ha you fail to save face even by acting as being fair and including non-bulgarian in the above list.
thats what i said before about you guys. Your marketing department sucks. and i cannot say smth different for the "product" it self either.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on May 3, 2009 10:08:14 GMT -5
thank you for being so "unbiased" once again. you ve prooven for countless times you are blinded by your love to the serbs and your hate to the BUlgarians. I am sure this does not represent all my Greek friends. So I dont think there is anything else to "discuss". Talking to you and novi is like talking to a wall.
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