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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 9, 2008 0:36:22 GMT -5
Your opinions about the terms Bugarasi, Grkomani and Srbomani?
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Post by Kassandros on Jun 9, 2008 11:42:53 GMT -5
Ah yes! I'm a Grkomani! lol lol I have heard they call us like that.. lol lol But why...? Afterall... we're brothers! lol lol
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 9, 2008 18:27:59 GMT -5
^ The vardarians call their own by these names, depends on the specific area.
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Post by Kassandros on Jun 11, 2008 14:10:41 GMT -5
Yeah.. I know. Everytime I used to meet one during the summer vacations, and after they checked me If I'm or not a Greek refuggee from Asia Minor or Black Sea, then they started the "story"...... that I'm their brother that I'm suppressed from the Greeks and when I told them to f.uc.k off.. the called me Grkmani lol lol
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 11, 2008 22:24:08 GMT -5
^ lmao
What l'm trying to say is that they will refer to their kind from the north as srbomani, the east as bugarasi and some from the south as grkomani lol......could this be something more that we don't know about?
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Post by Kassandros on Jun 12, 2008 12:00:23 GMT -5
Yes of course.. Dont you know that since the recent years they used to convince us (the real Macedonians living in Greece), that we're brothers... but we dont know it!! lol lol And the "bad" Greeks make us feel something that we are not (Greeks). They stoped it, and they start to call everybody as refuggee from Turkey... after their Political Party in Greece took 3,600 votes... lol lol
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Post by benkovski on Jun 12, 2008 16:36:40 GMT -5
Bugarasi: Macedono-Bulgarians who have not succumbed to the Serbian, Greek, or Yugoslavian anti-Bulgarian propaganda. These are the Macedono-Bulgarians who have preserved their Bulgarian self consciousness.
Srbomani: Macedono-Bulgarians who were to one extent or another assimilated by the Serbs (beginning in the early 20th century).
Novi, these here are probably closest to your theory on the mixed origins of Macedonians. The people who are today referred to as Srbomani are largely descendents of those who were assimilated by the Serbs. Additionally, the Serbian government placed Serb officials in Macedono-Bulgarian villages and pressured many of the local women to marry Serbs.
Grkomani: Macedono-Bulgarians who succumbed to the early attempts of the Greek government to assimilate them. Many were assimilated and the Greeks had greater success than the Serbs in this respect. These are the same people who in the early 20th century were called Bulgarophone-Greeks, and later on Slavophone-Greeks.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 12, 2008 19:50:15 GMT -5
"Novi, these here are probably closest to your theory on the mixed origins of Macedonians. The people who are today referred to as Srbomani are largely descendents of those who were assimilated by the Serbs. Additionally, the Serbian government placed Serb officials in Macedono-Bulgarian villages and pressured many of the local women to marry Serbs."
You absolutely sure about this?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 12, 2008 20:12:42 GMT -5
I found your reply above quite contradictory, l would like to share with you Alexander von Heksch from "Die Donau von ihrem Ursprung bis an die Mundung",Leipzig,1885,pp.63
He says the following:
"It is understandable that the Turks preferred the patient and submissive Bulgar to the rebellious Serb or Greek. Since the Serbian principality had gained its freedom, the Turks regarded every Serb who declared himself to be such as a rebellious conspirator against the Turkish regime.
This circumstance was widely exploited by the Bulgars in order to spread their propaganda among the Serbs outside the principality. Whoever was reluctant to become a Bulgar and persisted in calling himself a Serb was denounced to the Turks as conspiring with Serbia, and could expect severe punishment. Serbian priests were maltreated; permission was refused to open Serbian schools and those that were already in existence were closed; Serbian monasteries were destroyed.
In order to avoid persecution, the population renounced its nationality and called itself Bulgarian........during the last thirty or forty years, propaganda has been rife in which the Bulgars have encouraged the Turks to act against Serbs and Greeks. Hence, throughout Macedonia, Thrace and Dardania, Slavs are considered to be Bulgars, which is quite incorrect. On the contrary, the Slavs in Macedonia are incapable of understanding a Bulgar from Jantra.
If it is desired to designate these Slavs correctly, than they must be considered as Serbs, for the Serbian name is so popular among them that for example male children are sometimes christened "Srbin" [Serb]*. the Serbian hero of the folk poems, Marko Kraljevich is obviously the Serbian ruler in Macedonia."
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 12, 2008 20:16:36 GMT -5
Edmund Spencer shares the same view as myself, he believes that the Vardar region are Rayahs or a mixed race!.
His quote can be found from, "Travels in European Turkey", vol. II , London, 1851, pp. 30
This is what he had to say on the matter:
"The inhabitants are for the most part composed of Rayahs, a mixed race of Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians, who, it cannot be doubted, would join to the man their brethren in faith of Serbia and Upper Moesia.It must therefore be evident that the great danger to be apprehended to the rule of the Osmanli in these provinces, is the successful inroad of the Serbian nationality into Macedonia; with this people they have the tradition of right, and their former greatness, aided by the powerful ties of race and creed"
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Post by rusebg on Jun 13, 2008 9:44:42 GMT -5
Novi, you post this every once in a while. For your own credibility, cut it. Don't you understand that statements like this are utter stupidity and ignorance? Not yours, this von Heksch moron.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 15, 2008 1:27:43 GMT -5
^ I don't know Ruse, if his a moron, then his a moron.
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Post by benkovski on Jun 20, 2008 20:11:52 GMT -5
Yes Novi, when Macedonia fell under Serbian rule after the Second Balkan War, the Serbian government pressured local women to marry the Serb official that were there to ‘keep the order’. So, if there is any credibility to this mixed origin of Macedonians, then yes it is most likely that the few who actually have mixed Serbo-Bulgarian origin reside in the areas closest to the Serb border. Hah, Heksch.. Even though I am not disputing his “findings”, the question that is unanswered here is how many Serbs designated themselves as Bulgarians? One? One hundred? May be a couple of thousand? Even if the number was around 100,000 which I highly doubt, the population of Macedonia was around 2,000,000. Out of these most scholars decisively agree that 80% were of Bulgarian ethnicity. Yes the region of Macedonia contained many ethnic groups, yes the region was mixed, yes it is likely that there were mixed marriages. But, let’s remember that most scholars agree that the region’s ethnicity of mainly Bulgarian (slightly more than 80% of the population). This means that even though there was some tiny number of mixed marriages, that would still not be enough to reduce that 80% majority by more than a couple of percentage points. Regardless, as I’m sure you know, most contemporary scholars sided with the Bulgarian side. Go to this thread: illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=makedonijamacedonia&action=display&thread=8349And let’s see if we can figure out how, when, in what number, and IF Serbs ever had a strong footing in Macedonia, aside from some linguistic influence, prior to the 20th century.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 21, 2008 7:47:49 GMT -5
"Yes Novi, when Macedonia fell under Serbian rule after the Second Balkan War, the Serbian government pressured local women to marry the Serb official that were there to ‘keep the order’. So, if there is any credibility to this mixed origin of Macedonians, then yes it is most likely that the few who actually have mixed Serbo-Bulgarian origin reside in the areas closest to the Serb border."
Oh really l never knew Serbs actually were forcing vardarian women to marry serbian men?
I have known of serbian families ripped apart during communism, one half inside vardar saying l'm descendant of alexander and the other half saying l'm serbian who lives inside serbia.
"Yes the region of Macedonia contained many ethnic groups, yes the region was mixed, yes it is likely that there were mixed marriages. But, let’s remember that most scholars agree that the region’s ethnicity of mainly Bulgarian (slightly more than 80% of the population). This means that even though there was some tiny number of mixed marriages, that would still not be enough to reduce that 80% majority by more than a couple of percentage points."
I want to ask you something Benkovski, why do Serbian sources never mention that the Nemanjichi conquered the lands in the south from the Bulgars?. As l'm aware they always state explicitly that they took them from the Greeks.
As it brings me to this quote:
Arround 1229/1230 Bulgarian Emperor John Asen II wrote an inscription in Trnovo:"I have took the land from Adrianopolis to Drach,Greek,Albanian and also Serbian".
Daskalov,H.S. "Otkritija v drevnei stolicji Bolgarskoi,Ternovo"Moskva, 1859 pp.18-19
Dujchev,I. "Car Ivan Asen II" Sofija, 1941 pp.23-24
Makushev,V "Bolgarija v' koncjah XII i v pervoi polovini XIII veka" ,1872 pp.56-57
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 21, 2008 7:51:17 GMT -5
Benkovski, l've read your link, they are a collection of 19th century when the exarchos was at its most prominent in Vardar!.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 21, 2008 8:14:47 GMT -5
I haven't got much time at the moment but l will share with you this:
Hadji Kalfa, the Turkish geographer, records that Kostur was also in the Serbian lands and that Serbs, as well as Wallachians, lived there. In 1704, Jerotej Rachanin, on his way to Jerusalem, noted that the Serbian tradition was very lively among the peasants of Ovche Polje. Dr. Joseph Muller, who for a long time was a medical officer in the Turkish army, found in the middle of the nineteenth century, Serbs around Bitolj, in Debar and Struga, on the eastern shore of Lake Ohrid, and in the valleys of the Resan and Prespa. Dr. Karl Oestreich found fifteen Serbian familes in Ohrid. Although he had accepted the then widely held thesis that the Slavic population of Macedonia was Bulgarian, Franz Bradashka nevertheless stated: "Serbs are living in isolated colonies among Bulgars and Shiptars around Prespa and Ohrid, in Albania west of the city of Berat, then in Novo Selo, Roskovica and Drenovica, finally in Najichevo on the Rzhan riverand on the mouth of this river." Anton Tuma von Waldkampf, an Austro-Hungarian field marshal, found Serbian settlements in the region of Bitolj. "In Macedonia," he says, "Serbs are living, partly in the great plain of Bitolj, partly in the Vardar plain and are particularly compact in the valley of Tetovo." They sporadically appear in the district of Salonica, where they live side by side with other nationalities.
karl Oestreich, "Makedonien" Geographische Zeltschrift, 1904, Vol, 1, p.252
Franz Bradashka, "Die Slaven in der Turkel" Mitteilungen aus Justus Peters' geographischer Anstalt, Vol. XV, 1869, p.458
Anton Tuma von Waldkampf, Griechenland, Makedonien und Sudalbanien, Leipzig, 1897, pp.214-15.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 21, 2008 8:31:27 GMT -5
Our Bulgarian friends can expand on this:
The territory of the Chustendil (also known as the Velbuzhd) diocese embraced the area from Velbuzhd and radomir southward. This area now belongs to Bulgaria. Samokov, now a county seat in Bulgaria, had at that time a numerous Serbian population: near the town were situated Srpsko Selo (literally, "Serbian Village") and Srpski Samokov. It was the dense Serbian population in this area that caused it to be assaigned to the resuscitated Patriachate of Pech. Sofia, meanwhile, remained within the Patriarchate of Byzantium. It is also noteworthy that it was only within the borders of the Patriarchate of Pech that the spirit of rebellion and the readiness to fight the Turks were constantly alive. Here, on one extreme frontiers, Bishop Simeon of Samokov took part in one revolt, while the bishops of skopje and shtip were parties to an agreement with Patriarch Arsenije IV to raise a rebellion. When Simeon was caught, he was taken to Sofia and hanged there in 1737. The writer who records his death says that this was followed by a great persecution of the Christians, and adds: "Ah, how the Christians suffered in those times: it seems to me that there had been nothing like it since the time of Diocletian."
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Post by benkovski on Jun 21, 2008 11:42:17 GMT -5
Yes, this is true. But, keep in mind that by Serbian land, he is referring to Belgrade and land that is west of it.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 21, 2008 19:09:53 GMT -5
^ yes, good excuse, but why does the Nemanjichi sources never explicity say they have conquered lands in the south from the Bulgars, but from Greeks?
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