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Post by depletedreasons on Jul 11, 2008 3:17:22 GMT -5
Greek Census in 1921 shows 500,000 Macedonians Prilep's Dragan Mitreski, owns an old Austrian Atlas who shows that in 1921, 500,000 citizens, 8.8% of the population in Greece declared themselves as Macedonians. This is just another document from the thousands of documents about the Macedonians in Greece. - This document is very important, because our southern neighbors continue their claim they have no Macedonian minority. I found this document by accident. This is a "heavy"document because it is done by a famous historian and author, as well as by an independent country, Austria. From the documents, in 1921, the Yugoslavian census listed 600,000 Macedonians, and this is exlusive, the Austrians also clearly distinguish the Macedonians in Bulgaria, however, their number was not given. For Bulgaria, because of the large number of Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia (what is now Bulgaria), the Austrians put 4 million "Bulgarians and Macedonians". Very interesting is the flag of Albania, they had no two headed eagle, rather a red and black flag with a white star", says Mitreski. Mitreski is not selling the book, he simply wanted to make the documents in it available to the Government for free, in their absurd negotiations with Greece. Mitreski says he found the book 15 years ago, when an older individual burned old books in Prilep's center. - There were Old Church books too. I have always been fascinated with old books, and made my hobby to gather old books. So i picked up several books from the old man, to save them from burning. One of those books was this great Atlas where all of the Balkan is documented. The documentation i.e. the Austrian Atlas was published several months after the Greek Census from December 19th, 1920. The results of this census were never publicly revealed by Greece, even though it was a census of great importance because for the first time was done on the so called "new territories". Questions included in the Census were:"What is your mother tongue?", "What language do you speak at home?", "If your language is not Greek, do you understand Greek?" Greece publicly released census information only for Greek territory before 1913, the actual Greece. All data for the newly occupied territories, including Aegean Macedonia, was hidden and never released. The Greek Government has refused to do another census since 1921. macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/2236/1/
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Post by radovic on Jul 11, 2008 13:05:09 GMT -5
Yes Greek-Macedonians, no Slavo-Macedonian crap.
This book looks like a pile some kind of falsification. Only briefly after WWII did Bulgaria recognize the existance of "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and not only that but Yugoslavia never recognized such a group until the communists came to power. Hence the claim this man makes is a lie.
Given that this document has no basis on facts. It is either a forgery or a sign that the true creators of the "Macedonian Nation" were Austrians seeking revenge on Yugoslavia for the death of thje Habsburg Empire.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jul 11, 2008 13:54:27 GMT -5
It is just me of is that photo showing data that only related to then new found kingdom of Serbs, Slovenes and Croats (renamed later in 1928 to Yugoslavia) as I see nothing about Greece there. In 1921 this country was not called Yugoslavia which the photo states.
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Post by radovic on Jul 11, 2008 18:47:10 GMT -5
^ More signs of a forgery.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 11, 2008 19:18:02 GMT -5
Greek Census in 1921 shows 500,000 Macedonians Prilep's Dragan Mitreski, owns an old Austrian Atlas who shows that in 1921, 500,000 citizens, 8.8% of the population in Greece declared themselves as Macedonians. This is just another document from the thousands of documents about the Macedonians in Greece. - This document is very important, because our southern neighbors continue their claim they have no Macedonian minority. I found this document by accident. This is a "heavy"document because it is done by a famous historian and author, as well as by an independent country, Austria. From the documents, in 1921, the Yugoslavian census listed 600,000 Macedonians, and this is exlusive, the Austrians also clearly distinguish the Macedonians in Bulgaria, however, their number was not given. For Bulgaria, because of the large number of Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia (what is now Bulgaria), the Austrians put 4 million "Bulgarians and Macedonians". Very interesting is the flag of Albania, they had no two headed eagle, rather a red and black flag with a white star", says Mitreski. Mitreski is not selling the book, he simply wanted to make the documents in it available to the Government for free, in their absurd negotiations with Greece. Mitreski says he found the book 15 years ago, when an older individual burned old books in Prilep's center. - There were Old Church books too. I have always been fascinated with old books, and made my hobby to gather old books. So i picked up several books from the old man, to save them from burning. One of those books was this great Atlas where all of the Balkan is documented. The documentation i.e. the Austrian Atlas was published several months after the Greek Census from December 19th, 1920. The results of this census were never publicly revealed by Greece, even though it was a census of great importance because for the first time was done on the so called "new territories". Questions included in the Census were:"What is your mother tongue?", "What language do you speak at home?", "If your language is not Greek, do you understand Greek?" Greece publicly released census information only for Greek territory before 1913, the actual Greece. All data for the newly occupied territories, including Aegean Macedonia, was hidden and never released. The Greek Government has refused to do another census since 1921. macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/2236/1/ maybe those who declared Macedonians were Albanians themself because i dont see there Albanian mention , that flag with white star that he say, is very interesing because White Star explain Illyrians and second king of illyrians was Bardhylli (that mean White Star)
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Post by radovic on Jul 11, 2008 20:05:35 GMT -5
^Albanians would fall udner being 60% of those as other. At that time there were some 290,000 Albanians in Kosovo and some 70,000 or so in Vardar.
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Post by terroreign on Jul 12, 2008 2:54:17 GMT -5
Yes Greek-Macedonians, no Slavo-Macedonian crap. This book looks like a pile some kind of falsification. Only briefly after WWII did Bulgaria recognize the existance of "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and not only that but Yugoslavia never recognized such a group until the communists came to power. Hence the claim this man makes is a lie. Given that this document has no basis on facts. It is either a forgery or a sign that the true creators of the "Macedonian Nation" were Austrians seeking revenge on Yugoslavia for the death of thje Habsburg Empire. Lol I love how you denounce this by creating your own outlandish theories.... Obviously the census would be referring to slav-macedonians and not greeks since greeks state their mother tongue is greek... And there is a difference between bulgaria "recognizing" a minority, and an outside country conducting a census in bulgaria. Serbia did not recognize Albanians as a minority until quite some time. Austrians seeking revenge on Yugoslavia? In 1920? So tito didnt create the Macedonians but the vengeful austrians did? lol AAdmin - the book is supposedly an atlas, thus showing yugoslavia's demographics as well as greece's. As for the name: So Yugoslavia was shorter than the official name, thus...
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Post by Kassandros on Jul 12, 2008 3:57:00 GMT -5
"Greek Census in 1921 shows 500,000 Macedonians" ----------------------------------------------------------------- Today we are far more.. So?
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Post by terroreign on Jul 12, 2008 4:29:13 GMT -5
^The census in greece was of ethnicity
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Jul 12, 2008 11:50:23 GMT -5
^The census in greece was of ethnicity Terro, There are many more census' if you will only look. All of them fail to mention a Macedonian ethnic group. Even the Ottoman census failed to acknowledge a Macedonian ethnic group. These census documents can be easily found on J-STOR. Avoid simple internet searches. Austrians??? Now they are the authority? I think we can rely on the Ottoman census statistics much more than Austrian. The Austrians fantasize too much.
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Post by radovic on Jul 12, 2008 13:14:08 GMT -5
Yes Greek-Macedonians, no Slavo-Macedonian crap. This book looks like a pile some kind of falsification. Only briefly after WWII did Bulgaria recognize the existance of "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and not only that but Yugoslavia never recognized such a group until the communists came to power. Hence the claim this man makes is a lie. Given that this document has no basis on facts. It is either a forgery or a sign that the true creators of the "Macedonian Nation" were Austrians seeking revenge on Yugoslavia for the death of thje Habsburg Empire. Lol I love how you denounce this by creating your own outlandish theories.... Obviously the census would be referring to slav-macedonians and not greeks since greeks state their mother tongue is greek... And there is a difference between bulgaria "recognizing" a minority, and an outside country conducting a census in bulgaria. Serbia did not recognize Albanians as a minority until quite some time. Austrians seeking revenge on Yugoslavia? In 1920? So tito didnt create the Macedonians but the vengeful austrians did? lol AAdmin - the book is supposedly an atlas, thus showing yugoslavia's demographics as well as greece's. As for the name: So Yugoslavia was shorter than the official name, thus... First of all. I say this book is either forgery or an act of Austrian revanchism. I am more inclined to believe it is a cheap forgery. Furthermore. The figures ignore the fact that Austria couldn't have conducted the census (as you imply) and negates the fact that "Macedonians" would not have been conducted as a group in any Yugoslav census. Lastly, the population figures fior Bulgaria are off by 1 million. Not only that but 8.8% being 500,000 people implies Greece having 300,000 more people in 1921 then it actually did.
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Post by terroreign on Jul 12, 2008 14:58:05 GMT -5
And why couldn't Austria have done the census? Although it was probably a private group of Austrian ethnologists. And there is no reason Macedonians wouldnt appear in the Yugoslav census.
The population figures for bulgaria aren't off, 4 million bulgarians and macedonians, followed by 1 million turks and gypsies.
And please, populations always fluctuate among censuses especially back in those times...
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Post by radovic on Jul 12, 2008 17:34:56 GMT -5
And why couldn't Austria have done the census? Although it was probably a private group of Austrian ethnologists. And there is no reason Macedonians wouldnt appear in the Yugoslav census. A census is done by the relevant state. A Bulgarian census is carried out by Bulgaria. A Russian by Russians. An American by Americans. There is no reason why Austria would be conducting a census for other states. A private group always lacks the resources to carry out a census, the best they can do is an estimation. Furthermore. Yugoslavia didn't recognize these so-called "Macedonains" until the Partians won in WWII. In post-WWI Bulgaria 90% of the population was Bulgaria. I made a mistake the figures are off by 500,000. Not that much. Basically this is saying that in between 1920 (when Greek census carried out) and this alledged 1921 "Austrian carried census in Greece" and before the population exchanges of 1923 there would be a discrepancy of 300,000 people. An absurd notion terroreign even for you to claim.
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Post by Kassandros on Jul 13, 2008 4:06:35 GMT -5
Terro, "The census in greece was of ethnicity" -------------------------------------------- I dont think so. That is what I have read in the article.... -Prilep's Dragan Mitreski, owns an old Austrian Atlas who shows that in 1921, 500,000 citizens, 8.8% of the population in Greece declared themselves as Macedonians.- There is no ethnicity mentioned. Just tribal declaration. So, even if today the same happens, more than 8,8 percent will declare themselves as Macedonians. Me included. What does this mean... that by declaring Macedonian... I have any connections with the BulgaroAlbanoSerbo mixture of Fyrom? Come on dude...
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Post by terroreign on Jul 13, 2008 4:29:47 GMT -5
^But the questions in the census invalidates your theory
"Questions included in the Census were:"What is your mother tongue?", "What language do you speak at home?", "If your language is not Greek, do you understand Greek?""
The people declaring themselves as macedonians answered their language as macedonian.
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Post by Kassandros on Jul 13, 2008 15:07:26 GMT -5
Captain of Macedonian Struggle
Kapetan Kottas or Kotef, born in the village Rulia later named after him, a non Greek-speaking fighter during the Macedonian struggle for liberation.
He died in the hands of the Turks and at the last minute of his life he said.."ZIVIA GRTSIA ...SLOVONTA I SMIR" ÆÇÔÙ Ç ÅËËÁÄÁ.....ÅËÅÕÈÅÑÉÁ Ç ÈÁÍÁÔÏÓ !
......
Do you speak about guys like him? ;D
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Post by terroreign on Jul 13, 2008 15:09:32 GMT -5
^lol
That's quite a thing to say at the end of your life
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Jul 13, 2008 21:25:31 GMT -5
Bulgarians WERE definitely a confused people back then. It is sad that so many people toy with them and lead them to believe they are something that they are not. I mean, come on, the Greeks did it to them too. A Bulgarian village back then would have declared there ethnicity based upon what language they were speaking in the church they attended.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 14, 2008 11:10:16 GMT -5
Bulgarians WERE definitely a confused people back then. It is sad that so many people toy with them and lead them to believe they are something that they are not. I mean, come on, the Greeks did it to them too. A Bulgarian village back then would have declared there ethnicity based upon what language they were speaking in the church they attended. same greeks
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Post by Kassandros on Jul 14, 2008 15:53:45 GMT -5
Guys the idea of Macedonian Struggle and how that mini-war started it was because Greece and Bulgaria couldnt find a mutual accepted solution how to split the area after Ottoman Empire collapsed.
In order to avoid the war, the 2 countries were in talks. Both agreed that a poll should take place among the citizens of the villaeti of Macedonia. Based on that poll the area will be splited among the 2 newborn countries. The only problem was...
..Bulgarians where claiming that the poll should be based on what language the citizens speak... and Greece claiming the poll should be based on what ethnicity the citizens will admit.
of course as you understand... guys like Capetan Kottas... speaking ONLY Bulgarian but with Greek nationality.. were the problem.
So.. that is how talks couldnt take place and the war begun.
Also... of course... that is why Macedonians won the Bulgarian comitats. They were more, and even if there were Bulgarian speaking, they new in what side they should fight for like Kapetan Kotas..
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