ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 7, 2009 3:03:49 GMT -5
The quotes below regard the Macedonians who came to Canada or the US to seek refuge from the anti-Bulgarian pressures in Serb and later Yugoslav occupied Macedonia as well as Greek occupied Macedonia.
These are not claims made by outside sources, these are quotes regarding the everyday lives past and present of the Macedonian immigrants.
The churches they speak of exist today, I've been to 3 of them.. and they are still called Macedono-Bulgarian churches.
Notice that this quote refers to pre-World War II and post-World War II. Basically, prior 1944 being Macedonian was only a regional identity and not an ethnic one. After 1944, the ethnic Bulgarians of Macedonia started using the term 'Macedonian' as an ethnic identity due to presure and anti-Bulgarian initiatives from Serbia and Yugoslavia as a whole.
This quote demonstrates that Macedonian is a regional identity and not an ethnic one.
So there's no dispute that the Macedonians today were originally ethnic Bulgarians.
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Nov 7, 2009 6:34:32 GMT -5
What is "Greek occupied Macedonia"...?Just like saying "Greek occupied Lakonia"....?
|
|
|
Post by ljubotan on Nov 7, 2009 8:00:41 GMT -5
Asen,
You must note that there's always been a Serb element in Vardar, so refrain from making it sound that 'all' Vardaranci were/are Bulgarian.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 7, 2009 12:03:47 GMT -5
Ljubotan, you are not wrong.. BUT in comparison to the Bulgarian element, the Serb element was/is no where near as siginificant.
International and even Serbian sources, prior the massive anti-Bulgarian agenda, show that more than 80% of the population of Macedonia identified as Bulgarian. And as you can see from the Macedonian immigrants to Canada and the US, they identified as Bulgarian until recently.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 8, 2009 12:45:39 GMT -5
Demo, where you at?
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 8, 2009 19:36:32 GMT -5
Asen the serb element was always significant in vardar, moreso than the Bulgars, here is one of many petitions l have at my disposal:
PETITION ADDRESSED BY MACEDONIANS TO MILAN PRINCE OF SERBIA AND TO THE CONGRESS OF BERLIN, PRAYING TO BE UNITED WITH SERBIA
From the districts of Kicevo, Prilep, and Veles, with the signatures of 170. mayors, priests, archimandrites, etc., appended and bearing the seals of 44 communes. The petition is headed : —
" The following was resolved upon at the meeting on Mount Babuna, May 10, 1878, " and addressed to Prince Milan. It is worded as follows: —
" A short time ago the Corbadzi (notables) of our city, who, together with the Turks, have fleeced us ever since Kosovo, informed us that we are to fall under the domination of a Bulgarian realm, as if we were not true and pure Serbs, but some kind of Bulgars I
" All of us, Illustrious Prince, in the nahijas (districts) of Skoplje, Tetovo, Debar, Kicevo, Veles, Prilep, Bitolj, Kostur, Gorica, Solun, Seres, TikveS, Istip, Radoviste, Nevrokop, Melnik, Kocani, Kratovo, Kumanovo, Banjska, Radomir, Sofija, Kriva Palanka, Samokov, Dupnica, etc, are true Serbs of true Serb stock. This is proved by the innumerable exclusively purely Serbian remains to be found in all the said nahijas (districts).
11 We have but to look around to see in the said districts our Metropolitan Church of St. Sava in Debar ; the Church of the Blessed Mother of God and the Holy Archangel (Sv. Bogorodica, Sv. Arangjel) in Prilep, both founded by Kings Milutin and Marko ; St. Jovan Slepcevacki and St. Nikolas in Prilep, also the Sv. Bogoro- dica (Blessed Mother of God) and St. Nikolas in Prilep, all founded by King Decanski ; St. Jovan, St. Naum, and Cista Precista in Ochrida, founded by the Kings Vojislav and Vladimir; St. Nikola Toplicki in Bitolj, founded by Milan TopUca ; St. Dimitrije in Skoplje, founded by King Vukasin ; SS. Andrija and Vasilije, founded by King Andrejas ; St. Jovan's in Palanka (containing the grave of Despot George of Smederevo), founded by King Dragutin ; St. Nikola's and the Archangel, Sv. Bogorodica and Spas in Istip,
245
246 MACEDONIA
founded by King Decanski ; the tomb of the Blessed Nemanjici in Kratovo ; that of Belja Krilatica in Eilo ; Nemanica, the home of the Nemanji6i ; St. Dimitrije in Veles, founded by Zupan Stra- cimir, brother of Nemanja ; St. Pantelija's in Kocani, founded by St. Simeon Nemanja ; r St. Antana's in Tetovo, founded by Car Lazar ; SS. Jovan and Gjorgje in Debrica, founded by Kings Badoslav and Milutin ; Sv. Cista Precista and Presveta Bogorodica in Kicevo, founded by Kings Milutin and Dragutin ; Sv. Presveta Bogorodica Devica (Most Holy Virgin Mother of God), founded by King Tiros the Great, besides many others not mentioned in each nahija, as well as the ruins of hundreds of monasteries and churches built by Serbian Kings and Tsars. Our assertion is further proved by the relics of our sainted kings and tsars and other Serbian saints such as King Milutin in Sofija; King Vladimir in Elbasan ; St. Naum in Ochrida ; St. Prohor in Kumanovo, St. Jakim in Palanka, St. Gavril in Kratovo, the Holy King in Gjakovica (follows a further list of saints).
"We therefore send to you, in the names of the entire districts of Kicevo, Veles, and Prilep, our accredited agents Hadzi Trajkovid
Mincik, Gj N and A D , and on our knees implore
Your Serene Highness, Our August King, that you will unite us together with our native land with Holy Mother Serbia, so that we may at last emerge from our bondage and become men and a useful member of the people of Europe ; but not to let us exchange the harsh Turkish yoke for the still harsher and blacker Bulgarian servitude, which will be harder, more oppressive, and more unendurable to us than the Turkish which we have endured hitherto, and would leave us no way of avenging ourselves for this wrong, save either to slay our whole households or to forsake our sacred soil, our churches and graves, and all that we hold dear, the which will profit neither Europe nor our own nation."
|
|
|
Post by rusebg on Nov 9, 2009 6:45:43 GMT -5
Hey cangaroo...read a little. The topic is about Macedonian Bulgarians in USA and Canada!!! I know you missed this 'source' of yours, you haven't shown it for about a month but try to put it in the appropriate place.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 9, 2009 7:08:49 GMT -5
^ o.k ruse have it your way, there is a reason why l posted it, tell asen why with his comment above.
|
|
|
Post by rusebg on Nov 9, 2009 7:24:19 GMT -5
What's wrong with Asen's comment?
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 9, 2009 8:19:12 GMT -5
"BUT in comparison to the Bulgarian element, the Serb element was/is no where near as siginificant."
This is why l replied.
|
|
|
Post by rusebg on Nov 9, 2009 8:37:39 GMT -5
It is correct. What is number of Macedonians who identified themselves as Serbs in the USA and Canada?
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 9, 2009 8:45:10 GMT -5
^ there are historical reasons, but l'll let you Bulgar boys have your little show in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by ljubotan on Nov 9, 2009 10:15:47 GMT -5
I'm speaking for Tetovcani that live in Detroit....
When these immigrants first came to Detroit in the 60's and 70's, they had a choice to attend a Serb church or Bulgarian church (built by Vardarians and Bulgarians); however, these Tetovcani attended the Serb church.
Okay, there's about 40,000 people today in Vardar that say they're Serb, right? Right! Those that admit it know their family history, but that number is about 5x that. Why? For everyone of those 40k they have a brother or family member that refuses and instead say's he/she is 'Macedonian'; therefore, the Serb element is amongest 300,000 Slavs in Vardar at min.
There are many many more Serb churches in Vardar than Bulgarian, why is that? The people were pro Serb for a reason and that's because they respected Serbdom, which was handed down from generation to generation (I'f course I'm not denying the Bulgarian element).
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 9, 2009 16:48:14 GMT -5
Uhh.. OK, so there were 170 Serbs to the 1,000,000+ Bulgarians. But yes, let’s try to stay on topic as Novi has the tendency to post random unrelated crap in most threads.
Did they build any Macedono-Serbian churches? If they attended the Serb church, then they were probably Serbs.. there were a few thousand Serbs in Macedonia.
Ljubotan, you are far more educated than Novi, or at least you seem to be. You are talking about 40,000 Serbs in Macedonia ‘today’. ‘Today’ is after the 50-60 years of Serb/Yugoslav rule of the region.
Ok, today there are 40k.. that’s fine. But, prior to 1944 the vast majority of international and some unbiased Serbian sources have stated that the Bulgarians in Macedonia (ie. the Macedono-Bulgarians) numbered between 1,000,000-1,300,000. The other large ethnic groups were Greeks, Turks, and Albanians. Serbs, Jews, Armenians, Gypsies, and others, all numbered less than 70,000.
That’s because when our Serbian Orthodox ‘brothers’ invaded the region when Bulgaria was fighting the Turks in the First Balkan War.. our Serbian ‘brothers’ destroyed many Bulgarian churches in Macedonia and those that they didn’t destroy they renamed as Serbian.
With the exception of the few actual Serbs that lived there, the people of pre-Yugoslav Macedonia were NEVER pro-Serbian. They concealed their Bulgarian identity by identifying with their regional Macedonian identity because they didn’t want to be beaten, imprisoned, raped, or even murdered by the low life Serb bandits who were sent to Macedonia to de-Bulgarize the region. This was a government funded initiative of the Serbia.
To the few thousand Serbs sure.. but they were no more than 20,000 before Yugoslavia.
Doesn’t matter what you or any other Serb thinks. What’s important is that almost all international and non-biased sources state that more than 80% of the population in Macedonia identified as Bulgarian. It would be impossible to get an unbiased opinion from a Serb on the matter, unless of course it’s a reasonable, educated, and objective individual, as most Serbs today would claim that Bulgarians are Mongols or something idiotic of the sort even though there have never been any archeological evidences found to support this.
The Macedonian immigrants to Canada and the US in the early 1900’s are direct evidence of the findings in those international sources.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 9, 2009 16:50:15 GMT -5
Demo, where you at bra?
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 9, 2009 17:57:43 GMT -5
1.2 million Bulgarians in vardar, arn't you getting alittle bit ahead of yourself.
Anyway, l promised Ruse that l'll let you guys have your party here.
|
|
|
Post by ljubotan on Nov 10, 2009 10:15:25 GMT -5
I will not refute your view, because I don't speak for the entire Vardar region - only for my NW region. I will say this, if Serbians and Bulgarians treated Vardarians better the census in Vardar would show many more thousands saying they're either 'Serb' and 'Bulgarian'.
Actually, the Bulgarian Church in Dearborn, Michigan was made by Vardarians from Ohrid and Bulgarians from Bulgaria; however, the rest of the Vardarians refused to go there because it was Bulgarian.
Serbo-Croatian languages are far more similar than Vardarian-Bulgarian. While we share the same words (sega, razbiram, sakam, etc), when I listen to Bulgarians speak I'm lost but its not that way with Serbian.
Many hundreds of Serb churches were built back in the 12th, 13th and 14th centuries, and majority were dedicated to Tzar Lazar and Dusan the Mighty.
Its unfortunate of the divide between these 2 ethnic groups because I truly believe they were closer 800yrs ago, by customs, language, traditions etc. I think the wars between them in the late 19th cent and the subsequent Balkan wars killed mutual respect. I don't think either care about Vardar today; they'd only be inheriting 650,000 albanians anyways.
Is there any proof of Bulgarians moving into Kosovo during Bulgaria's 200yr rule of Kosovo in the 9-10th centuries?
|
|
|
Post by macmako on Nov 10, 2009 10:46:11 GMT -5
For those not in the know:
Vardar refers to the Republic of Macedonia
Vardarians are the people from Republic of Macedonia, or Macedonians.
The terms referenced above are mainly used by non-Macedonians, especially Bulgarians and Serbians.
To the people of the Republic of Macedonia, "The Vardar" refers to the longest and major river of Macedonia.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 10, 2009 11:34:44 GMT -5
This is the opinion of the vast majority of international sources prior to 1944.
If the Serbs didn’t forcefully try to assimilate them, Macedonians today would still be calling themselves Bulgarians.
Refer to the churches and references I’ve posted above, the churches that were built by Macedonians in the early 1900’s in Canada were and still are known as Macedono-Bulgarian churches. Not Macedono-Serbian.
This was not the case 100 years ago. The only differences in Macedonian and Bulgarian are those that have been artificially implanted during Yugoslavia for Macedonia and during communism for Bulgaria.
Great, but this is not related to the topic.
Bulgarians and Macedonians were absolutely the same in every way until 1944, when the regional identify of being Macedonian was pushed to become an ethnic one by the politics of Serbia and Yugoslavia as a whole.
Refer to the Gorani. But this, once again, not related to the topic.
What kindda propaganda BS are they feeding you? Bulgarians in general don’t refer to Macedonians as Vardarians. We, as most of the rest of the world, know that Macedonians were Bulgarians prior to 1944.. but we generally refer to Macedonians as Macedonians.
|
|
|
Post by ljubotan on Nov 10, 2009 12:55:16 GMT -5
The NW of the country uses mainly Serbian words with Vardarian grammar; its doesn't make them less Serb. More importantly, in 1842 many districts in the NW voted to have Serbian schools (do not have that fact any longer to present here).
If they (Vardarians) were that 'easy' to assimilate from being 'Bulgarian' to 'Macedonian', then truly they were never felt Bulgarian pre 1913!
The languages were never the same (maybe 1000yrs ago) but not since, only in grammar there are similarities. Again, if Serbia so 'forceful' then how come the population doesn't speak standard Serbian today?
Did you know that about half the population in Vardar voted to stay with Yugoslavia in 1991, but many of those criminals/Albanians stole thousands of votes and turned them 'for seperation'?
Vardar regardless of who first is a shared culture between Serbs and Bulgarians and that's it. Speaking of Gorani, those few that identify with being Bulgarian do it because of the EU entry nothing else. I bet if Serbia was in the EU all those Vardarians that filed for Bulgarian status would have went for Serbian passports instead.
|
|