Bozur
Amicus
Posts: 5,515
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Post by Bozur on Mar 6, 2008 14:03:38 GMT -5
Racism and Greece Posted by: DeviousDiva in Guest Blogging, Racism My blogging began because of a racist attack that had happened here in Greece six years earlier. It shocked the country then, not just because it was so horrific but also because the country had to wake up and see that racism exists here, contrary to popular opinion. It is a commonly held belief that Greeks are not racist. It is also common to hear people say, “ We don’t mind Black people, it’s the Albanians, Turks or Gypsies, we have a problem with. In more recent times, the Chinese have joined the list of baddies because of the small shops selling cheap clothing that have sprung up all over the big cities. This is a country where it is still acceptable to put your house up to rent and to specify that foreigners need not apply. This is a place where the media will accuse any crime on Albanians before any facts are known. There is no shortage of stories here about racism and xenophobia. There is more material than I could possibly cover myself.I understand that It is often difficult for people to face up to racism. It is not an enjoyable experience to be accused of racism. And here I was accusing a whole country of the racism they didn’t want to see or acknowledge. There has been a collective temper tantrum and an avalanche of denial. How dare a foreigner call us racist? And worse still, a black one! The problem is that you cannot tackle racism unless there is an admission of its existence and a willingness to accept responsibility and to change it. It is pointless to say that the racism in England or France is worse than here. That is not helpful to the Roma or Albanian (or other foreign) people who are beaten up on a regular basis by the police. That doesn’t help the asylum seekers who are locked up and treated worse than animals. That doesn’t assist the hundreds of African children who cannot get birth certificates issued when they are born here leading to problems getting health care, education or a passport. There are many Greek bloggers who are tackling the same issues that I am. There are hundreds of people here who are working for change. Unfortunately, the mainstream media seems to have its head buried firmly in the sand. And the politicians are mainly just being politicians. They do absolutely nothing at best. The nationalist party is gaining ground, with its leader being seen regularly on TV, spouting his racist garbage. There are reasons that this is happening. The hysteria about the rising numbers of immigrants here (now at around 10% of the population) that is fueled by the media. There are the usual accusations that the nationals are losing their jobs because of foreigners. The rising crime figures are blamed on us regardless of information that this is not true. And on and on and on… The main problem I see is that we are now seeing second and third generation of “foreigners” who are not immigrants. They are Greek and they are growing up and they are demanding equality and opportunity. Unless Greece as a country can grow up and acknowledge that there is a problem of racism, I can see only trouble ahead. You only have to look at what has happened in other countries to see the result of ignoring, ghettoizing and generally abusing those who are “other” Lessons can be learned from the experiences of other countries if only there was a willingness to do so. I do not see that happening here. It seems to me that we are on a well-trodden path to more serious problems in the very near future. People can only be poked for so long and then they bite back. We will hear more angry protests about the treatment of foreigners and Greeks of different backgrounds. We will see people taking to the streets (a common pastime here for any grievance) demanding their rights as citizens of this country. We will see support for the struggle here from people outside the country. More international condemnation of the abuses that occur here. Whether the powers that be will sit up and take notice and then have the guts to actually do something about it, remains to be seen. I feel compelled to keep scratching away at this issue regardless of what I am being accused of (from trying to undermine the country, to being a terrorist, to the classic “you’re the racist”). I have seen small shifts even on my humble blog and have many Greek blog friends who support this effort. The outpouring of support when the nationalists targeted me was incredible. Perhaps the change can come from us, the little people who care about big things and are letting the world know what is happening. www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/08/28/racism-and-greece/
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 7, 2008 0:27:04 GMT -5
I have reopened this topic and eliminated unrelated content. (*Bozur has special promission to post anywhere by me regardless)
I doubt my beloved Greeks are that fragile that they can not counter civil criticism (whether it is warranted or not). I see this as a chance to counter propaganda displayed in the above thread and promote some discussion in our mother forum.
PS: Lets promote free exchange of civil and relevant ideas rather then censor them as I believe ancient Hellenic spirit would permit.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 7, 2008 0:49:07 GMT -5
Let me try to reply to the thread
"It is a commonly held belief that Greeks are not racist."
Not more or less then any other group of people and not more or less then any other Balkan people (who are not exactly the most open minded people in the world as a group but are more tolerant then not I would say).
" It is also common to hear people say, “We don’t mind Black people, it’s the Albanians, Turks or Gypsies, we have a problem with. "
Any given Balkan people have certain others they feel discomfort towards and among some this discomfort is more pronounced then among others and among a minority it approaches more extreme forms. Still these are opinions by some and it is not like there are organized lynchings and attacks.
" In more recent times, the Chinese have joined the list of baddies because of the small shops selling cheap clothing that have sprung up all over the big cities."
Perhaps people are more comfortable with their own culture and Chinese being secluded newcomers make some suspicious while others might dislike that some of these Chinese merchants are seen as introducing products of poor quality while on the other hand competing with 'native' business.
" This is a country where it is still acceptable to put your house up to rent and to specify that foreigners need not apply. This is a place where the media will accuse any crime on Albanians before any facts are known. There is no shortage of stories here about racism and xenophobia. There is more material than I could possibly cover myself."
Not more or less then in any other given Balkan country except the stories will change in terms of one group of people seeing another in similar light, again Balkanians are rather protective of their culture and not exactly known to open handedly embrace new comers. But again we are speaking of perceptions versus actions.
" I understand that It is often difficult for people to face up to racism. It is not an enjoyable experience to be accused of racism. "
If it is coming from a well nurtured soul then perhaps it is not difficult to face but what if the purpose of such posting is questionable in its initial reason and openly one-sided.
" And here I was accusing a whole country of the racism they didn’t want to see or acknowledge. There has been a collective temper tantrum and an avalanche of denial. How dare a foreigner call us racist? And worse still, a black one!"
It is a country and perhaps some traits of balkanian tribal mentality (Balkans embraces change gradually) can not change over night but what can change over night is the one who disagrees can simply buy an airplane ticket and exit a country that in their view is so 'despicable' (yet simultaneously a immigration magnet). It is not like any given country or culture owes something to a newcomer.
" Unless Greece as a country can grow up and acknowledge that there is a problem of racism, I can see only trouble ahead. "
I see utmost arrogance to actually label a whole country (every single person) in any given manner. Totalitarian behavior pattern that is fully comparable with any other in that respect. " Perhaps the change can come from us, the little people who care about big things and are letting the world know what is happening."
Perhaps stopping such generalization and discontent towards entire people is a good start.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 7, 2008 13:29:58 GMT -5
the balkan domino.Dear balkan papa,i doubt that my youtube videos were not related to the subject of this thread. It was more like an indirect answer to bozur's article... As a greek i believe that my country is not willing to have all these immigrants.Their number may even exceed the two millions in a country with a population of only ten millions.There should be some reasonable limitation.Also lets not forget that all these people have arrived here in a very small period,of about 15 years.And they keep on coming... this is certainly something that nobody else in the balkans has experienced so far...As about the albanians specifically,yes,i supose that we dont feel very nice concerning the presence of a million of them in Greece...Albanian crime and imperialism is something that worries us indeed.We cannot ignore the incidents of kosovo and skopje...The balkan domino goes on... Anyway,my question to you is : which shall be the role of the albanians in Greece in 50 years time...just immigrants or a gigantic minorirty of two millions,eager to claim serious political rights and continue playing its revisionist role in the balkans???the vision of*greater Albania is very popular amongst the albanian youth and i dont think that such dreams will soon expire.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 7, 2008 13:31:33 GMT -5
Considering my chats with greeks on the illyrian boards, I find them quite racist
But I believe that real greeks in greece arent bad.
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Post by slowdent on Mar 7, 2008 13:52:42 GMT -5
terro
thank you for the contribution
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Post by Niklianos on Mar 7, 2008 13:56:27 GMT -5
Considering my chats with greeks on the illyrian boards, I find them quite racist But I believe that real greeks in greece arent bad. Really, you do realize there are many mainland Greeks in here also and those of us who visit Greece on a regular basis and still have our siblings, cousins and close relatives there also! Greeks are not racist they are just FED UP! They are fed up that after 400 years of Ottoman occupation, bitter fighting with Turks and Bulgarians during the Balkans Wars, being forced to take on a Bavarian King, fighting some of the same people during WWI, being invaded in WWII, being divided during the Greek Civil War by our neighbors to the north and communist and then having the Americans and Brits screw us over with the Junta and Cyprus in the late 60's and 70's, we finally had our own country free of outside manipulators, instigators and invaders. Greece was finally able to become Greece during the late 70's more than 160 years after gaining independence. Greeks had finally found their comfort zone and started accepting all Greeks irrelevant of where they originate as Greek. Now Greece is having all of that destroyed once again! Athens is bombarded by outsiders who have no connection to that land. Greece is having it's heritage, culture and history attacked and stolen by those same people who had once attacked it, Turks, Slavs of FYROM and Albanians. So why shouldn't Greeks be upset or come across as racist? Wouldn't you react in the same way? In reality of the matter Greeks are NOT racist and the simple fact of filotimia towards ALL people who VISIT or vacation in Greece proves this. Greeks respect and are friendly towards all people who respect Greece, it's people and cultural heritage. P.S When and how is it wrong for an individual to decide to whom or who they will rent their property to? If they decide they will rent only to Greeks then that is their prerogative and their right when it comes to personal property!
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Post by bordura on Mar 7, 2008 15:09:42 GMT -5
Hi Niklianos,
"you are feed up" i must admit that no one could hold you accountable on what feeds you up!. It is your wright and we as non Greeks have not much insight on your concerns so the best thing for us to do is to listen (to Greeks) what the concerns are. And that makes for a chance to conferees on civilized terms. My only advice to Greeks is that in humble way do the same too. I know we are Balkanians all of us. we get emotional and our pride gets touchy so easy, but while respecting your feed up i notice also that there are some racist trends little hotter then in other countries with immigrants. I know we can't fix nothing here, we just talk to each other in this forum. I don't know the other immigrants status in Greece, but i have some modest family experience with emigration. I have cousins in Italy, Germany, Austria, Holland, Canada, USA, all of them went on this countries after 1992. In Greece i have more in numbers. In early years we used to contact each other very often. One very specific element that baffled me was the "name thing". Only my cousins in Greece insisted that when we call them with Greek names if the call wast received from them directly , but from some Greek, that must have been the employer, the landowner etc. This phenomenon didn't happened with the rest of the family on the other countries. Most of my family in Greece are couples and they have kids. All the kids are baptized (there are 9 of my little cousins now there). Non of other little cousins in other countries is baptized or follows any religious rite. Please try to understand me, it is just an observation. It is a fact that is a type of pressure on them in Greece. I'm not jumping to accuse Greece or Greeks on the matter as something done in planing or some Greek governmental master plan. No I'm not saying that. I think that in personal level a Greek will accept little easier a person that comes as immigrant from Albania and claims "I'm vorio epirot and my name is Spiro or Janni". So the mechanism of survival triggers and my cousin that is looking for job doesn't care that he knows nothing about religion or his name in reality is Altin, or Gentian or Vjollca. The decide to play the game and declare I'm Niko, Janni, Vula. They have kids and they opaaa try to blend because it makes life easier so baptize them. I'm not against blending at all. It is respect toward the land that gave you opportunities and helped them to have a better life. it just shouldn't come through pressure, and they feel some of that definitely. Now to be fair with Greece; i don't know how we Albanians would had acted if a mass Greeks equaling 10% of population would show up in short time inside Albania. Maybe equal maybe worst than you guys and that goes for other Balkan countries too. But it is a IF what people see unfortunately is only you guys so the ball is on your side of the field. It is a burden no doubt. And yes my cousins do not have only complains. They love the life style, they appreciate personal relations they have build with Greeks that helped them and employed them and in total they are better of financially. In few words my friend, you have all the rights to get feed up and we cant argue with it, it is just some times the means for you to vent out and the actions go a bit over the line and Albanians feel as looked at through the ethnicity criteria filter.
When and how is it wrong for an individual to decide to whom or who they will rent their property to? If they decide they will rent only to Greeks then that is their prerogative and their right when it comes to personal property!
Well for this point let me tell you: in most of western countries it is illegal by law to discriminate in the market (being labor, housing, trade,etc) based on race, color of skin, language, sex, religion affiliation, age, familial status, sexual orientation, political affiliation and other elements that are racist and infringe the wright of minorities. I don't know about Greece, but since a EU country it must have that law too. It is another matter how it is enforced and how the society sees it as something normal when the opposite accrues. I thing Greece has to bring the body of laws on sync with the EU so i really believe they do have it on paper. The only criteria you are allowed to discriminate when participate on a market is economical, financial, profitably and other factors that do not infringe the human rights. Now one weird experience i had this summer in Albania when i visited. I was browsing newspapers and reading job offers. Oh man what a disaster. There was total catastrophe the job market announcements from local employers. i would read adds like this. Young woman needed! Not older then 28. Single. and bla bla bla about the skills of the position. The only thing missing was should be 175cm, blond, green eyes, cup size 38D and able to have sex with the owner. lol we are all the same my friend just it happened the ball is on your side this time so play it right. u might score and opaaa might win this ugly game.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 7, 2008 16:21:49 GMT -5
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Post by albquietman on Mar 8, 2008 15:17:52 GMT -5
Aadmin, have you ever been in Greece, as an immigrant of course, not as a tourist? Because I see you're trying really hard to address the racism in Greece as a Balkanian problem in general, not a greek problem.
We all know you have a thing about Greece, kinda like you're madly in love with her, but don't forget that no matter how beautiful an good she looks in your eyes, she is far from perfect, because nothing is perfect...but then again, beauty is in the eyes of the behoder...
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 8, 2008 15:22:51 GMT -5
Perfection and beauty are two compete different things,don't mix them up...
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Post by Kassandros on Mar 8, 2008 15:41:43 GMT -5
Albqueitman "Aadmin, have you ever been in Greece, as an immigrant of course, not as a tourist?" ------------------------------------------------------------------ albqueitman.. have you even been an immigrant in a Western European country ? I'm sure.... no. Go ask your Turkish friends.. Everyday the last 2 weeks a house with Turkish families gets burned with 2-3 victims everytime. Usually kids. Go ask Senegalese in the suburbs of Paris; everyday fires in the houses of black people. Go ask the black people in Boston city in US. Attacks on blacks is a usual phenomenon. Go ask the blacks in Florida. 75,000 black people were taken their ability to VOTE in the last elections! Thang God beeing the Greeks who host 1 miilion Albanians and not somene else.. Really.. thank your God 5 times a day. Dont tell me about racism Tourkalvane.... you have no idea what racism is.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Mar 8, 2008 15:53:59 GMT -5
Basil, racism and discrimination shouldn't be brought together; they are way different. In your post you're talking mostly for the immigrants who are indeed physically different from the persons of the hosting country. In Greece there is discrimination. As one member said here: we, as Albanians, don't know how we could have handled such a situation; actually we are racists too (sorry to admit it, but it's true!) but the ball is on Greek's side. Is up to them to play it right. On the other hand, Greece needs immigrants and the cheap labor to build Greece. But it lacks a right approach when it comes to immigration policy and equal opportunities. (At least in papers...)
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Post by albquietman on Mar 8, 2008 17:17:44 GMT -5
Albqueitman "Aadmin, have you ever been in Greece, as an immigrant of course, not as a tourist?" ------------------------------------------------------------------ albqueitman.. have you even been an immigrant in a Western European country ? I'm sure.... no. Go ask your Turkish friends.. Everyday the last 2 weeks a house with Turkish families gets burned with 2-3 victims everytime. Usually kids. Go ask Senegalese in the suburbs of Paris; everyday fires in the houses of black people. Go ask the black people in Boston city in US. Attacks on blacks is a usual phenomenon. Go ask the blacks in Florida. 75,000 black people were taken their ability to VOTE in the last elections! Thang God beeing the Greeks who host 1 miilion Albanians and not somene else.. Really.. thank your God 5 times a day. Dont tell me about racism Tourkalvane.... you have no idea what racism is. Well, thanks for the reply Basil. No matter if you achieved your objective or not to convince me about the racism as a phenomena all over the world, but at least you tried. The blog talks about the way albanians are stigmatized in Greece when you compare them with other immigrants from the other countries, and as it says there, when a crime happens, without even trying to prove it, albanian are on the black list by default, and I've seen that first hand, so don't waste your time to convince me on that. Talking about the other immigrants, let's start with turks. First of all I have not any turk friends, but and if I had, nothing wrong with that. If you're talking about the turks of Germany, don't forget that the neo-nazis treat the greeks in the same way, and I said neo-nazis, not the average german. I can't talk about the whole world, but I can talk about Boston where I live. I don't know where you find the facts that you posted here, but none of them happens here, because here is USA and there are laws in place. It's not Greece where everyone can say whatever thinks in public. About the Florida blacks, once again you're wrong. There were some blacks with criminal activity that were taken off the voting lists, because the republicans knew that these people will vote for democrats, so wasn't because of racism. Try to update your knowledge before you start typing... The last thing that I wanted to say, stop using that word turkoalvane, it sounds too childish, and judging from some of your posts, you must be an adult, so try to make all of your posts compatible with your age...take it as a friendly advice.
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 8, 2008 19:05:55 GMT -5
First of all you have left Greece long ago...dont think nothing has changed since then. The Greek people know very well that its indeed not always albanians who are resposible for crimes.
On the other hand...I know we had very many discussions about this...but albanians get as immigrants...coming from a very very poor country...rather criminal than a French or an English. Of course an immigrant coming from a poor country will rather be suspected by the police than mr Papadopoulos who is the father of three kids and 75 years old. You have to understand that this is a natural phenomenon you will find everwhere in europe, doesnt matter how much unjustly it may seem.
Then if you compare the percentage of criminal Greeks within Greece and criminal Alanians within Greece you will of course come to the conclusion that the Albanians are much more criminal in average, thats a fact you cannot argue...here in Germany its exactly the same. Just here its not the albanians but the turks and arabs.
Of course there is some prejudice against albanians in Greece...and surely the Greek is stronger managed by his emotions...and so he hates more passionate than a German or an English for example...but you also mustnt forget the many terrible crimes which have taken place in Greece since 1990, crimes that were to the Greeks of totally alien nature. In my opinion you cannot always appeal to inequity...and the role of an unjustly treated victim... Human rights is an important term...but it shouldnt be missapplied to afford crimes as if they are justified in the face of the sacrosanct human rights.
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Post by albquietman on Mar 8, 2008 20:45:36 GMT -5
Kastor, I never said that albanians are angels and never commit crimes. Of course they do. I agree with you that greeks (and all balkanians) are emotionally driven, but you have to admit that most of the hatred towards albanians is fueled by greek media. I've said this before (as you said this kind of debate has happened before), but some of you here do not want to admit it. Just by saying albanians commit crimes is wrong to begin with. A criminal doesn't have nationality. We all know today that when we talk about Mafia we mean an international criminal organization, not an italian one. Globalization is the word today and organized crime is part of it.
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Post by Niklianos on Mar 8, 2008 21:36:25 GMT -5
Bordura,
I agree with what you say. The problem is not really the Albanians because before the influx of illegals entered Greece there was not such discrimination and views on the Albanians.(At least no where as bad as they are today.) It was the influx of illegals from Albania who could not get jobs due to their status that gave the legal Albanians a bad name. This is only a natural occurrence. Just look at the U.S. There have always been Mexican migrant workers who lived and worked in the U.S. They were not taken as a threat by Americans. But once the millions of Illegals started to pour in and spread all over the country did many Americans start having a problem with Mexicans. This was for the same reason as I posted previously about Albanians in Greece. The culture that Americans were used to had virtually changed overnight. Everywhere you looked there were Mexican restaurants, there were Mexicans doing construction lowering the average pay for that job. The list goes on.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that it isn't necessarily a racism towards a specific group but a dislike of how what was American or Greek is no longer the same. I guarantee you if it wasn't for the extremely large number of Illegals entering the problems between Greeks and Albanians and Americans and Mexicans would be nowhere as prevalent as they are.
Now with that said I strongly feel that the only solution for this would be to eliminate the need for all people to mass migrate. Countries need to work together better in order to improve the countries with the poor economies. After all this is the main reason why mass migrations occur. So how do we change things in the migrants countries to improve their economies and encourage people not to want to leave their homelands?
Now for your family members who felt that it was necessary to Hellenize their names I am sorry they felt that way. I have worked with many Albanian laborers, who are legal, on archaeological excavations who have always used their Albanian names. I am certain many change their names in order to fit in better with the rest of society and make it easier to find jobs. This has even been the case for many immigrants including Greeks in the U.S. Many have anglicized their names by changing them to Philip, George, Agnew, Alexander, Michaels, Crist, etc. Greeks in general I believe do not hate Albanians they just hate the ones causing the problems and, being human, generalize and lump everyone together.
Now for the discrimination aspect it is illegal to discriminate for the the reasons you mentioned. But that is for the market and public sector. What one does with their own personal property I believe does not apply to those laws.
I have to thank you for bringing civilized discourse to this subject. It is definitely something that needs to be discussed.
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Post by albquietman on Mar 8, 2008 21:46:18 GMT -5
Good post Niklianos...well said!
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Post by Niklianos on Mar 8, 2008 22:24:59 GMT -5
Thank You Albquietman!
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Post by captainalbania on Mar 8, 2008 22:46:06 GMT -5
albqueitman.. have you even been an immigrant in a Western European country ?
I'm sure.... no. Go ask your Turkish friends.. Everyday the last 2 weeks a house with Turkish families gets burned with 2-3 victims everytime. Usually kids. Go ask Senegalese in the suburbs of Paris; everyday fires in the houses of black people. Go ask the black people in Boston city in US. Attacks on blacks is a usual phenomenon. Go ask the blacks in Florida. 75,000 black people were taken their ability to VOTE in the last elections! You're a liar. IF this s**t really happened in the U.S then it would be the single biggest news story ever. Back up your wild claims **** As for greece being racist. Greeks and Albanians are the same race so how are they being racist towards us? Morons. They are being hostile because there are TOO many of us there. Too f**king many. I bet we would be hostile towards them if greeks became 10% of the population of our country too and started moving to Tirana without assimilating. But like i said, its not the Albanians you have to worry about. Last time i was in Athens (2 years ago) there were plenty of Philippinos, Pakistanis, and black africans there. Good luck cleaning up that mess. _________ no personal insults.
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