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Post by Steven on Jun 14, 2010 14:57:57 GMT -5
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Jun 17, 2010 8:52:29 GMT -5
I don't think what that Ionescu wrote is accepted officially. AFAIK, the official theory is that Romanians are Ghanaians and i think there is no doubt about that. See, the Romanian word for mug is cană, that's a decisive prof that we're from Ghana.
I hope our brothers from Ghana win the WC.
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Post by Ivanov on Jun 30, 2010 14:58:27 GMT -5
Romanian folklore.WTF?? This is ridiculous. To put the old Bulgar martenitsa in an article about the Romanian folklore. They even didn't make the effort to change the file name of the picture.
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Post by Anittas on Jul 1, 2010 4:08:43 GMT -5
There's no proof that Martisor is originally a Bulgarian tradition. Just because you and your Turkic friends insist on it doesn't make it true.
And even if it were true, if it's a part of Romanian folklore, then it's reasonble to include it in the article.
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Jul 2, 2010 18:53:07 GMT -5
Were Mars and the month named after him Bulgar? This custom has nothing to do with Asia, it's obviously a Roman tradition that survived only in the Eastern Roman Empire. It is/it was also a Albanian and Greek tradition.
Some ethnologist said it was first attested in Balkans 1600 years ago at a time when Bulgars ate rats in Mongolia and Slavs weren't even invented.
And what do Bulgarian have in common with Bulgars apart of the name? Do you have any kind of tradition, words etc that can be 100% identified as being Bulgar? You are nothing but a nation formed aroud a core of invading Slavs who took the name of Bulgars only because they happened to live under the rule of a Turkic clan named Bulgars. `
Don't mention the hilarious legend invented in modern time about Asparuh - a person about whom the Bulgarians found about only in the last couple of hundreds of years in some foreign books.
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Post by Ivanov on Jul 3, 2010 18:33:15 GMT -5
Were Mars and the month named after him Bulgar? This custom has nothing to do with Asia, it's obviously a Roman tradition that survived only in the Eastern Roman Empire. It is/it was also a Albanian and Greek tradition. Some ethnologist said it was first attested in Balkans 1600 years ago at a time when Bulgars ate rats in Mongolia and Slavs weren't even invented. And what do Bulgarian have in common with Bulgars apart of the name? Do you have any kind of tradition, words etc that can be 100% identified as being Bulgar? You are nothing but a nation formed aroud a core of invading Slavs who took the name of Bulgars only because they happened to live under the rule of a Turkic clan named Bulgars. ` Don't mention the hilarious legend invented in modern time about Asparuh - a person about whom the Bulgarians found about only in the last couple of hundreds of years in some foreign books. This is complete nonsense. When exactly was the territory and the population of contemporary Romania a part of the Eastern roman empire? And why is this tradition not present in Armenia, Georgia, Little Asia, Palestine and other real long turn provinces of the Eastern Roman empire? On the other hand, except in Bulgaria, to a lesser or greater extent this tradition is observed only in Romania, Moldova, Fyrom, Albania, Northern Greece - all of them former provinces of the Bulgar dominated First Bulgarian empire.
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Post by tsompanos on Jul 4, 2010 2:36:24 GMT -5
^^ northern greece? this is probably more common in southern greece today
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Post by lvl100 on Jul 4, 2010 3:48:53 GMT -5
On the other hand, except in Bulgaria, to a lesser or greater extent this tradition is observed only in Romania, Moldova, Fyrom, Albania, Northern Greece - all of them former provinces of the Bulgar dominated First Bulgarian empire. This reminds me of another Bulgarian on another forum that tried to convince anyone that the Romanian "ochi" comes from Bulgarian "oki" ( or something similar I dont remember the spelling exactly). I was like , wow, how cool is that, Bulgarian leaving strong influences on the ancient Latin.Someone should let those Italians know about their true origin of "occhio" Then here we have this guy trying with a straight face to convince us that piece of folklor named after the frigging martius mensis is Bulgarian. Priceless.
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Post by Anittas on Jul 4, 2010 6:08:45 GMT -5
Were Mars and the month named after him Bulgar? This custom has nothing to do with Asia, it's obviously a Roman tradition that survived only in the Eastern Roman Empire. It is/it was also a Albanian and Greek tradition. Some ethnologist said it was first attested in Balkans 1600 years ago at a time when Bulgars ate rats in Mongolia and Slavs weren't even invented. And what do Bulgarian have in common with Bulgars apart of the name? Do you have any kind of tradition, words etc that can be 100% identified as being Bulgar? You are nothing but a nation formed aroud a core of invading Slavs who took the name of Bulgars only because they happened to live under the rule of a Turkic clan named Bulgars. ` Don't mention the hilarious legend invented in modern time about Asparuh - a person about whom the Bulgarians found about only in the last couple of hundreds of years in some foreign books. This is complete nonsense. When exactly was the territory and the population of contemporary Romania a part of the Eastern roman empire? And why is this tradition not present in Armenia, Georgia, Little Asia, Palestine and other real long turn provinces of the Eastern Roman empire? On the other hand, except in Bulgaria, to a lesser or greater extent this tradition is observed only in Romania, Moldova, Fyrom, Albania, Northern Greece - all of them former provinces of the Bulgar dominated First Bulgarian empire. Ivanov, do you have any sources for your claims or do you simply like to speculate? Also, what you refer to as the First Bulgarian Empire was also known as the Vlach-Bulgarian Empire. I don't know how much the Bulgarians dominated, since the first rulers were of proto-Romanian origin (the Asens). Also, only a small part of present-day Romania was part of the proto-Romanian ruled Vlach-Bulgarian Empire. The Vlach-Bulgarian Empire was a shared state between Vlachs and whatever else. Again, if you have sources, you're welcome to post them. Hopefully, they won't be Bulgarian.
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Post by Ivanov on Jul 4, 2010 19:16:31 GMT -5
On the other hand, except in Bulgaria, to a lesser or greater extent this tradition is observed only in Romania, Moldova, Fyrom, Albania, Northern Greece - all of them former provinces of the Bulgar dominated First Bulgarian empire. This reminds me of another Bulgarian on another forum that tried to convince anyone that the Romanian "ochi" comes from Bulgarian "oki" ( or something similar I dont remember the spelling exactly). I was like , wow, how cool is that, Bulgarian leaving strong influences on the ancient Latin.Someone should let those Italians know about their true origin of "occhio" Then here we have this guy trying with a straight face to convince us that piece of folklor named after the frigging martius mensis is Bulgarian. Priceless. I am not arguing about the name of this tradition, but about the tradition itself. The fact is that since 7th century AD, for several hundreds of years the Bulgarian influence in Romania was very strong, afterwords everything reminding of it was gradually rooted out, even in wikipedia the Ro history between 7th and 14th centuries is described by only one sentence, leaving a seven-century gap. For instance, as far as I remember for some reasons, until 1862 Romania used the the Cyrillic alphabet - invented in the capital of the First Bulgarian empire (what a coincidence). Then after 1862 you migrated to a Latin-based alphabet. So, using the same pattern the conversion of a Bulgar tradition into a Latin one is not impossible. By the way, why over 80% of the proud Latins in Romania are in fact Orthodox Christians, this is simply unique for a Latin nation, how did it happen? Your wiki again is silent on that issue.
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Post by Ivanov on Jul 4, 2010 19:48:15 GMT -5
This is complete nonsense. When exactly was the territory and the population of contemporary Romania a part of the Eastern roman empire? And why is this tradition not present in Armenia, Georgia, Little Asia, Palestine and other real long turn provinces of the Eastern Roman empire? On the other hand, except in Bulgaria, to a lesser or greater extent this tradition is observed only in Romania, Moldova, Fyrom, Albania, Northern Greece - all of them former provinces of the Bulgar dominated First Bulgarian empire. Ivanov, do you have any sources for your claims or do you simply like to speculate? Also, what you refer to as the First Bulgarian Empire was also known as the Vlach-Bulgarian Empire. I don't know how much the Bulgarians dominated, since the first rulers were of proto-Romanian origin (the Asens). Also, only a small part of present-day Romania was part of the proto-Romanian ruled Vlach-Bulgarian Empire. The Vlach-Bulgarian Empire was a shared state between Vlachs and whatever else. Again, if you have sources, you're welcome to post them. Hopefully, they won't be Bulgarian. Anittas, the First Bulgarian empire (681-1018 AD) was only Bulgar dominated. The Asens gave birth to the Second Bulgarian empire (1185-1396 AD). You are right that Asens' Bulgaria ruled only a small part of contemporary Romania. But the first empire was another case. Concerning the sources, the Bulgarian history is based 99% on foreign ones, because due to the 5-century Ottoman rule nearly all domestic ones have gone missing. the sources are mainly Byzantine and also Latin. Right now I don't have enough time to look for and cite the exact ones and I respect you too much to give an answer of low quality. I'll try to do it in several days.
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Post by lvl100 on Jul 5, 2010 2:55:50 GMT -5
I am not arguing about the name of this tradition, but about the tradition itself. First, to make my self clear i`m not trying to push a POV of Romanians as "inventors" of this tradition. There is not enough evidence for that. Its the : here we have some ancient pagan piece of folklore only like 3000 years old, who also used to be an important event for one of the biggest cultures of on the Earth, the Roman one. It even has their designated name. And oh yeah , it somehow survived in a fairly large area , inhabited by a hodge podge of countless settled and migratory tribes.
Conclusion ? Its the Bulgarians, silly ! thingy that amuses me. I would like to point out that choosing some pieces from Romanian history may bring some boost to your national ego and fill the post with "historical" knowledge. But its still worthless as it doesn't bring absolutely no light in the marte-nitsa problem. I know its pretty much standard strategy for this forum , but "We are cooler than you" argument does not solve any particular historical dispute by default.
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Post by Anittas on Jul 5, 2010 4:38:41 GMT -5
1. The Cyrillic alphabet was first implemented in Moravia; after those two dudes were thrown out, they moved to Bulgaria. Those two dudes were not Bulgarian, but they served Slavonic interest.
2. We used the Cyrillic alphabet for the most part. At times, we used the Latin alphabet. The Romanians in Transylvania used the Latin alphabet. Using the Cyrillic alphabet doesn't make us Bulgarians; using the Latin alphabet doesn't make us... well, Italians.
We are not denying the Slavic influence on our culture, just as we don't deny the Greek, German, and Cuman impact. However, we were discussing Martisor, not everything else.
How did we become Orthodox? That's a matter of debate, but if you look at the geopolotical map from the 7th to the 13 century, you'll see that the Eastern Empire had a good grip on the region, whereas the other areas to the north were hinterland. To make it short, no, we were not converted by Bulgarians. Lolz.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jul 5, 2010 5:19:34 GMT -5
Why it has to be something? Romanian, Bulgarian or Greek? Its a common tradition in a great part of Balkans and obviously its a custom originating from Balkans, not Volga...
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