ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 16, 2010 14:27:44 GMT -5
Надписана снимка на Лазар ПопТрайков и подписана от него,до неговия приятел Владимир Карамфилов(от Прилеп). Надписа и подписа на войводата са на Български език с Българска азбука.Защо ли двама Македонски воеводи си пишат на Български език и с Българска азбука?: "Подарявам лика си на приятеля Владимир Карамфилов за спомен. Л.П.Трайков 13/IV-1899 Дъмбени (Костурско)" Диме Стоянов Берберчето Петричката чета на Аце Иванов.Един Комита с Българска военна униформа и трима с националния герб на България на калпаците си. "Автономия или смърт" на знамето на Български език Г.Въндев участва във войните за национално обединение на България -Балканските войни 1912-1913 и Първата Световна война 1915-1918,където за проявена храброст е удостоен с 3 ордена. Т.Александров с униформа на Български-школник офицер от запаса. "Везните" на пагоните са в три цвята-Бяло,Зелено и Червено. Стара Българска пощенска картичка: "Обесването на войводата Александър Турунджов на 18 Август 1905 в Битолския площад Ат пазар." Интересното в тази картичка е ,че през 1941 е надписана от брата на войводата Ал.Турунджов и е подарена на войводата Тане Николов. "За господин Тане Николов За спомен от мен брата на покойния Александър който бе обесен за свободата на Македония и величието на българския род. 29/VIII 1941 год Пандо Турунджов Битоля" Скопска чета на ВМРО. Правия комита в средата на снимката носи Български Национален Герб на калпака си,а седналия от дясно носи кокарда на Български войник. Тази кокарда представлява стилизирано Българско знаме-Бяло,зелено,червено Снимка от 1923, на комитата Асен Милев Рупчев ,от Банско ,до негов приятел в Мехомия-(Разлог). Снимка от 1923, на комитата Асен Милев Рупчев ,от Банско ,до негов приятел в Мехомия-(Разлог).Надписа e на Български език : "Подарявам лика си за вечен спомен от четническия ми живот.Спомняй си за мен по често ,макар и аз да съм далеч от родния край. Привет Асен Милев Рупчев от Банско. 5/IV 1923" Защо ли двама "етнички македонци" според лъже историците и политици в днешна Р. Македониjа си пишат на Български език и с Българска азбука?
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 16, 2010 14:36:46 GMT -5
I'm not going to bother translating this into English word for word.. but, in short these are all Macedonian freedom fighters whose uniforms/hats/weapons bare the national Bulgarian coat of arms.
Some of this is correspondence between various Macedonian freedom fighters (ie. Kimiti), in which it is easy to see that they fought for an independent Macedonia and died for the Bulgarian cause.
ie. Any indication of a Macedonian self identification was purely regional and NOT ethnic. This is well documented by pretty much all neutral/independent sources. Though, I'm aware that the only people who may dispute this are uneducated Serbs, and "Macedonians" who have focused on learning history based on Tito's views.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 16, 2010 14:38:53 GMT -5
PS. The correspondence between Macedonian Komiti from one to the other is in the pure literary Bulgarian language and alphabet. These photographs were taken before the Serbianisms in Macedonian, and before Tito's invention of some bastardized Macedonian alphabet.
|
|
|
Post by eaglesson on Nov 17, 2010 8:00:22 GMT -5
If i was a macedonian i would've rather wanted to be a bulgarian than an ancient macedonian cause at least bulgarian nation still exists .
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 17, 2010 10:08:13 GMT -5
If i was a macedonian i would've rather wanted to be a bulgarian than an ancient macedonian cause at least bulgarian nation still exists . And Serb nation will exist for even longer, (as recent history has shown).
|
|
|
Post by odel on Nov 17, 2010 11:21:03 GMT -5
I've read about this in a history book from a Norwegian author who claims the same thing as you Asen that not too long ago the Macedonians were actually fighting to be a part of Bulgaria and that the "Macedonian" identity is a very recent creation.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 17, 2010 13:37:31 GMT -5
Glad to hear that. And yes, the "Macedonians" initially fought to have Macedonia united with Bulgaria. However, when it became evident that the super powers at the time didn't favor a united Bulgaria.. their goals shifted to having an independent Macedonia.
Eventually that landed them in the hands of the Serbs, who messed up their entire mentality.. mostly by force.
In more recent times, we can see some similarities with Kosova. An independent Kosova is favored by the west.. however, at the moment the west wouldn't allow them to unite with Albania.
They understand that many small countries are easier to control than a few unified countries, hence why virtually every Balkan nation has a duplicate country.
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Nov 17, 2010 14:30:21 GMT -5
The kastorianos teacher Vasileios Maleganos, killed by these guys above... IMARO band of Atanas Karshakov in the village of Dambeni IMARO band of Atanas Karshakov in the village of Dambeni IMARO members. In the middle Manol Rozov vojvoda from the village of Bobishta (did Aborigines helped Bulgaria then? Turkish soldier... ;D ;D Greek lady.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 17, 2010 15:08:07 GMT -5
I don't understand your comment.
In the initial stages of the IMRO, when it was still only fighting the Turks (or rather the Ottomans) there were Albanians, Greeks, Armenians, amongst other minorities that took part in some IMRO missions against the Ottomans. There were also some Turks who fought against the Ottomans as they were displeased with the Ottoman administration of the region.
Are the pictures of the Turk and the Greek you posted such cases?
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Nov 17, 2010 15:47:45 GMT -5
PS. The correspondence between Macedonian Komiti from one to the other is in the pure literary Bulgarian language and alphabet. These photographs were taken before the Serbianisms in Macedonian, and before Tito's invention of some bastardized Macedonian alphabet. Don't confuse the Serbian element in Macedonia with the Communist-Tito element which created the "Macedonian nation". This nation was created by Bulgar and Serb communists of Macedonia, it was a home-brewed concoction-not the import that you imagine. During the time of these pictures, there were also numerous local Serb forces operating in Macedonia as well, and they often clashed with the Bulgarian IMRO. Much of western and northern Macedonia was indeed Serb controlled. Especially the Skoplje and Prilep regions. So it'd be a mistake to assume that the liberation movement in pre-ww1 Macedonia was a big united Bulgarian group. Instead there were Chetniks, Greeks and IMRO forces fighting each other as well as Turks in Macedonia.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 17, 2010 16:10:36 GMT -5
There’s no confusion about this on my end. Tito’s propaganda was not the same as the Serbian propaganda that preceded him; however, it was a continuation of it. The Serbs before Tito attempted to assimilate the Macedonians into becoming Serbs, which obviously didn’t happen. There were some suggestions, even before Tito, to establish some sort of unique Slav idea that the Macedonian Slavs were different from both Bulgarians and Serbians though it was only during Tito’s time that this became a state wide ideology. In the end, the Serbs of the early 1900’s and Tito had one and the same goal.. to de-Bulgarize the region at all costs.
Hell, did you know that Yugoslavia’s ‘special police’ which numbered about 17,000 was mainly focused in Macedonia? To be exact, 12,000 were placed in Macedonia mostly in areas where the Bulgarian spirit was still alive and kicking.. the remaining 5,000 were spread all throughout Yugoslavia.
Many of these pictures are from a time when the main enemy of the IMRO was the Turks. However, after the Turks were dealt with, the main targets of these Macedonian patriots became the Serbs and Greeks who were forcefully trying to assimilate the local Macedo-Bulgarians.
All of the IMRO’s founding members identified as ethnic Bulgarians. Initially they all fought to unite Macedonia with Bulgaria, but later their goal changed into fighting for an independent Macedonia. Even when they were fighting for an independent Macedonia, they still identified as ethnic Bulgarians.
The Serbian and Greek groups were doing what they were doing in an attempt to annex Macedonia or parts of it. While the IMRO was a true Macedonian Patriotic movement that fought for the rights and freedoms of Macedonians, and it just so happens that at the time all these Macedonians identified as Bulgarians.
The Serb and Greek occupational forces in Macedonia were no better than the Turks. They slaughtered innocent populations much like the Turks had done centuries before them. This is all documented by independent sources, many of which have already been posted on these forums.
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Nov 17, 2010 18:15:07 GMT -5
There’s no confusion about this on my end. Tito’s propaganda was not the same as the Serbian propaganda that preceded him; however, it was a continuation of it. The Serbs before Tito attempted to assimilate the Macedonians into becoming Serbs, which obviously didn’t happen. There were some suggestions, even before Tito, to establish some sort of unique Slav idea that the Macedonian Slavs were different from both Bulgarians and Serbians though it was only during Tito’s time that this became a state wide ideology. In the end, the Serbs of the early 1900’s and Tito had one and the same goal.. to de-Bulgarize the region at all costs. Hell, did you know that Yugoslavia’s ‘special police’ which numbered about 17,000 was mainly focused in Macedonia? To be exact, 12,000 were placed in Macedonia mostly in areas where the Bulgarian spirit was still alive and kicking.. the remaining 5,000 were spread all throughout Yugoslavia. Many of these pictures are from a time when the main enemy of the IMRO was the Turks. However, after the Turks were dealt with, the main targets of these Macedonian patriots became the Serbs and Greeks who were forcefully trying to assimilate the local Macedo-Bulgarians. All of the IMRO’s founding members identified as ethnic Bulgarians. Initially they all fought to unite Macedonia with Bulgaria, but later their goal changed into fighting for an independent Macedonia. Even when they were fighting for an independent Macedonia, they still identified as ethnic Bulgarians. The Serbian and Greek groups were doing what they were doing in an attempt to annex Macedonia or parts of it. While the IMRO was a true Macedonian Patriotic movement that fought for the rights and freedoms of Macedonians, and it just so happens that at the time all these Macedonians identified as Bulgarians. The Serb and Greek occupational forces in Macedonia were no better than the Turks. They slaughtered innocent populations much like the Turks had done centuries before them. This is all documented by independent sources, many of which have already been posted on these forums. What it seems you are getting confused is that these Greeks and Serbs that fought against the IMRO were nearly 100% indigenous to FYROM. They weren't troops from Greece or Serbia invading bulgarian macedonia like you'd like people to think. During this time Macedonia had a very substantial ethnic Serb population, from 20% to 25%, and after the war many were persecuted by the communists for being Serbian and many were Bulgarized by this same regime. Thus you have masses from -ovic -> -ovski and -ov, the ones who refused fled.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 17, 2010 18:45:29 GMT -5
Prior to Macedonia's incorporation into Yugoslavia, the Serbs were an insignificant minority. They numbered less than the Armenian's or the Jews of Macedonia.
They were no more than 20,000 out of a total 1,300,000 population of Vardar Macedonia. Serbs were re-settled in Macedonia during Yugoslavia, but that was still no more than 50,000 of them.
This is what the independent sources shows us. And I've been asking Pazar to provide an overall number on the Serbs in Macedonia.. however, he's repeatedly failed to do so. All he's shown thus far is that there was a Serb presence in Macedonia, which was never disputed to begin with. Though, compared to other ethnic groups the Serbs of Macedonia were an insignificant figment prior to Yugoslavia.
On the other hand, Bulgarians formed more than 80% of the population. And unlike Pazar, I've already posted some of the sources that clearly state these facts.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 17, 2010 19:00:45 GMT -5
The opinions expressed in the source below are shared by pretty much all independent sources, including earlier pre-propaganda Serbian sources. THE FRONTIERS OF LANGUAGE AND NATIONALITY IN EUROPE BY LEON DOMINIAN PUBLISHED FOR THE AMERICAN GEOGRAPHICAL SOCIETY OF NEW YORK BY HENRY HOLT AND COMPANY 1917 The Macedonian highland is peopled by shepherds and wood- cutters. The lowlanders are husbandmen. All are generally bilingual, speaking either Greek and Bulgarian or Bulgarian and Serbian. A knowledge of Turkish usually prevails among all classes. Occupation generally affords a reliable national clue. As a rule the Macedonians, and by this term we shall hereafter denote the Bulgarian-speaking element of Macedonia, are tillers of the soil. The Greeks are traders and control a large share of the commerce of the entire region. Land is held by the Macedonians or the former ruling Turkish gentry. It is worked however by the Macedonians. The inhabitants of Macedonia may be divided into four groups according to their vernaculars. The number of indi- viduals in each group is estimated as follows: 5 Bulgarians 1,172,136 or 81.5% of the total Christian population. Greeks 190,047 " 13.22 " " " " " Rumanians 63,895 " 4.44 " " " " " Albanians 6 12,006 " 0.84 " " " " " The Bulgarians form a compact mass containing slight admix- ture of alien elements in northern and central Macedonia. Many of the occasional Greek communities encountered within this area are former Slav or Albanian centers having passed under the sphere of the Greek religious propaganda which has been actively carried on as a means of increasing the Hellenic domain. The instrument of Hellenization was the Patriarchate at Constan- tinople. The Patriarchs, bearing the title of Œcumenical, con- sidered themselves as apostles of the Greater Greece idea. After the fall of Byzantium, and notably after the closing of the Bulgarian Patriarchate of Okrida, the Œcumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople was the only official church established in Turkey for Christians. Its influence, directed through schools and churches, aimed above all to Hellenize Christians. The clergy was directed to convert to Orthodoxy the greatest possible number of Christians of alien denomination and, at the same time, attempt to enforce the use of Greek speech among non-Mohammedans. The Greeks of Macedonia are as mixed a people as can be found on the surface of the earth. Inhabitants of cities are strongly mixed with Albanian and Slav populations. pp. 204-205 The book is free on Questia.com, you can read the whole thing here if you'd like: www.questia.com/read/6451921?title=The%20Frontiers%20of%20Language%20and%20Nationality%20in%20Europe.
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Nov 17, 2010 20:25:20 GMT -5
Prior to Macedonia's incorporation into Yugoslavia, the Serbs were an insignificant minority. They numbered less than the Armenian's or the Jews of Macedonia. They were no more than 20,000 out of a total 1,300,000 population of Vardar Macedonia. Serbs were re-settled in Macedonia during Yugoslavia, but that was still no more than 50,000 of them. that's laughable to say the least...serbs were documented as a major presence in Macedonia since the arrival of the Slavs. The fact that during the first Balkan war prilep and the surrounding region was under Serb control, composed of Macedonia-born Serbs. Here are some facts: In 17th Century,Hadji Kalpha,a Turkish geographer recorded that mountains of the Castoria district are peopled by Serbs and Aromanians.He also mentiones that on the bank of the lake between Seres,Thesaloniki and Siderocaps there is a village inhabited by Greeks,Serbs and Aromanians. "Rumeli und Bosna,Geographisch beschrieben von Mustapha Ben Abdalaih Hadschi Chalfa aus dem turkischen ubersetzt von J. von Hammer" Wien 1812 pp.80; pp.97" Referring to the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia,Karl Oestreich noted: "A considerable part of the rural population, although it then felt to be Serbian, seized the first opportunity of obtaining Slavic priests and so declared itself to be Bulgarian......Whoever joined the Bulgarian Exarchate was registered in the Turkish population records as "bulgari-milet" and to the world as large was a Bulgar". Karl Oestreich "Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien",Geographische Zeitschrift,Vol. XI, No.1,1905,pp.291 During World War I, the Bulgarian troops under the command of first lieutenant Protogerov were ordered to inflict reprisals upon the population east of Kumanovo for an attack made on some Bulgarian troops.Before the reprisal measures were begun, the entire population declared that it was Bulgarian, purely in order to avoid being punished.Protogerov was greatly perplexed. Here is a quote by Gilbert in der Maur regarding this event: "Then Protogerov's aides had an idea: they asked who celebrated the 'slava'.Those who did so were shot, since the celebration of the 'slava' is a sign that one is a Serb:it is a custom which the Bulgarians do not have". Gilbert in der Maur "Jugoslawien einst und jetz" Leipzig-Vienna, 1936,pp.330 And today, northern and western Fyromians celebrate Slava, it's not an accident.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 17, 2010 23:46:23 GMT -5
I'm aware of this quote, Pazar has already posted this before. Howver, this is an isolated village inhabitted by mixed population. This doesn't speak of the overall popualtion of Macedonia. Hell, there were some 20-30,000 Serbs settled in Anatolia.. should we now assume that the Serbs were "native" to Turkey!?
Once more, nothing new here. And again, this quote, yet again, fails to discuss the overall population of Macedonia; which, was noted as being Bulgarian for centuries before the existance of the Bulgarian Exarchate. And not to mention that, the Bulgarian identity (of Macedonia as a whole, not of a village or two) is confirmed by pretty much ALL independent sources..
Pazar is that you man? Are you posting under another username? Hahaha guys you gotta get some new stuff.. or at least post something in context with more info. Thus far, all I've seen is the same 4-5 quotes COPY/PASTED over and over again.
Krivosanin, as I already mentioned above, these quotes have already been posted and re-posted by Pazar many many times before. Though once more, they DO NOT show nor do they discuss the overall population of Macedonia. You are merely demonstrating that there was some Serb presence in Macedonia, which as I already said, was never disputed to begin with. The important thing to remmber is that Serbs were ALWAYS, since the middle ages, a MINORITY in Macedonia. Or at least, that's how the sources have recorded it.
Is this guy serious!? It's like I'm reading the exact same posts from Pazar from over a year ago. It's almost as if he copy pasted the exact same words without actually trying to use his brain.
Anyway, do try to get the point that I'm talking about the OVERALL population of Macedonia. I'm not discussing some isolated incident or some lone viallage or two.
Hah, damn, thanks for a good laugh I guess. I suggest you start reading more before you post some randomly selected qutoes from books that I'm willing to bet you've never read, or even seen or touched for that matter.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Nov 17, 2010 23:47:29 GMT -5
PS. Slava is not isolated to Serbs alone.
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Nov 18, 2010 1:36:41 GMT -5
These aren't villages in these sources, but cities and large expanses of territory in Macedonia. That all point to Kumanovo Tetovo and all of Northern Macedonia as being Serb ethnicity, along with various other regions.
Additionally you can look at the Dusanov Zakonik, which specifically states in it that the only people found in the Macedonia region are Serbs and Greeks.
"All" sources? You post one quote from an American journalist and from this get reason to state that Macedonia is historically more or less 100% bulgarian?
This man probably couldn't even tell a Serb and a Bulgarian apart, let alone be qualified to come to such conclusions as the Bulgarians being 81% of the christian pop.
He refers to the greek population as a product of "Greek religious propaganda" used for "increasing the Hellenic domain".
It's clear this author was far from unbiased.
So are you, as a Bulgarian, saying that you celebrate Slava?
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 18, 2010 3:54:11 GMT -5
Asen, you are lucky that l'm not going to really comment on anything about vardar for a couple of months.....what a mess l see, even Pyrro and Krivo are seeing it too
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 18, 2010 4:38:36 GMT -5
So are you, as a Bulgarian, saying that you celebrate Slava? Eastern Serbs in Bulgaria (sopski tribe) used to celebrate slava and vidovdan. The bulgarian ruling elite (always) afraid of letting minorities to express themselves forbid the practice of such traditions. However, it is funny how this miserable snake Asen, changes skin according to the given situation : "PS. Slava is not isolated to Serbs alone." In some other context, we could use identical logic to prove that a certain population is Bulgarian. He is disgusting.
|
|