CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Dec 4, 2010 5:55:57 GMT -5
Hrvatski pravoslavni vjernici, čija je namjera obnoviti Hrvatsku pravoslavnu crkvu utemeljenu u Zagrebu 1942. godine, uspješno su registrirani! Ured državne uprave u Šibeniku registrirao je Udrugu hrvatskih pravoslavnih vjernika (UHPV), ocijenivši njihov zahtjev osnovanim i ovjerio njihov Statut, koji predviđa “organizirano okupljanje hrvatskih pravoslavnih vjernika“, a središnji simbol pečata i zastave im je istokračni pravoslavni križ na podlozi u obliku povijesnoga hrvatskog grba. Ovim službenim rješenjem Udruga hrvatskih pravoslavnih vjernika dobila je status pravne osobe i otvoren put da preraste u vjersku zajednicu. - Zakon je na našoj strani, uspjeli smo. Imali smo velike pritiske i otpore, iz Vlade RH, ali posebno od Srpske pravoslavne crkve koja je preko Eparhije dalmatinske, sa sjedištem u Šibeniku, izdavala priopćenja da uznemirujemo svećenstvo i pravoslavne Srbe u Hrvatskoj. Ali uspjeli smo, unatoč njihovim pamfletima da imamo “militantni i proustaški karakter“. - Stvarnost je jasna: veliki broj pravoslavaca u Hrvatskoj ne želi da ih se poistovjećuje sa Srbima. Oni su Hrvati i mi im moramo omogućiti slobodu vjere, a njihovoj djeci nesmetano pohađanje pravoslavnog vjeronauka. Naš cilj je osnivanje autokefalne crkve u Hrvatskoj, kakve postoje i u Makedoniji i u Crnoj Gori. Crkva u Hrvatskoj treba biti samostalna, imati svog poglavara, a ne biti vezana uz Srpsku pravoslavnu crkvu - rekao je predsjednik Udruge hrvatskih pravoslavnih vjernika Ivo Matanović. Dodao je da će službene prostorije imati u Kninu, da će se sredinom mjeseca detaljno predstaviti javnosti, te da imaju značajnu potporu pravoslavaca iz Rusije, Bugarske, Grčke i Rumunjske. - Samo nas Srpska pravoslavna crkva ne podupire, štoviše, žestoko se protivi našoj inicijativi - zaključio je Matanović. Masovnije organiziranje i “umrežavanje“ hrvatskih pravoslavnih vjernika intenzivno je započelo prije godinu dana, a javnosti su se prvi put obratili u ožujku u Zadru, kada je iguman Jelisej najavio uspostavljanje Hrvatske pravoslavne crkve, neovisne o Beogradu. - Mi ne osnivamo novu vjersku zajednicu, mi je samo obnavljamo. Hrvatska pravoslavna crkva bit će potpuno neovisna o Beogradu i o bilo komu drugomu i proglašena primarnom i glavnom pravoslavnom crkvom u državi Hrvatskoj. Nespojivo je s hrvatskim suverenitetom da ingerencije nad pravoslavnom crkvom u Hrvatskoj ima neka druga država - rekao je iguman Jelisej. www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/Hrvatska/tabid/66/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/123051/Default.aspx
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Post by terroreign on Dec 4, 2010 6:33:03 GMT -5
Ouf bre sta je ovo lele kuku majko kako su ovi olosi....a Matanovici su iz Crmnice bre coce, nijesu ni H od Hrvata
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Dec 4, 2010 22:15:07 GMT -5
^ Eh "maestro", nije lele kuku, nego kuku-lele.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 5, 2010 3:04:14 GMT -5
The Croatian Orthodox Church was created under the Ustasa Regime between 1941-1945 and was only abolished after the Ustasa regime was defeated. Even the Montenegrin Orthodox Church disowned the COC and denied any relations with the lobbies to revive such a Satanic Church.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 5, 2010 22:57:17 GMT -5
I don't see why there can't be a legitimate Croatian Orthodox Church. Can anyone? Or likewise a Serbian Catholic archdiocese. Seems like more religious politics to me.
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Dec 6, 2010 2:12:36 GMT -5
^^ exactly
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Post by terroreign on Dec 6, 2010 2:33:21 GMT -5
I don't see why there can't be a legitimate Croatian Orthodox Church. Can anyone? Or likewise a Serbian Catholic archdiocese. Seems like more religious politics to me. There is: the Bar archdiocese, in which when one becomes an Archbishop gets the official title of "Serbian Primate". Also this archdiocese and this customary title have existed before the 12th century. Now ask yourself why has there never in history existed a legitimate Croatian Orthodox Church
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 6, 2010 5:07:30 GMT -5
I don't see why there can't be a legitimate Croatian Orthodox Church. Can anyone? Or likewise a Serbian Catholic archdiocese. Seems like more religious politics to me. Because it never existed in the first place. The Croatian Orthodox Church was established by the Ustasha regime as an attempt to convert the Serbs into Croats and to wipe out the Serbian history completely out of Croatia. This is why there cannot be a Croatian Orthodox Church. Plus there wouldn't be any followers to begin with, with the revival of the 1941-1945 Croatian Orthodox Church.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 6, 2010 6:46:40 GMT -5
^Which is also the reason in 1900 the first Croatian Catholic Congress (and first Croatian national movement in history) was held in Zagreb, in which it was announced that anyone who speaks the Serbian language and is of Catholic confession, is an ethnic Croat.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 6, 2010 8:23:26 GMT -5
I don't see why there can't be a legitimate Croatian Orthodox Church. Can anyone? Or likewise a Serbian Catholic archdiocese. Seems like more religious politics to me. There is: the Bar archdiocese, in which when one becomes an Archbishop gets the official title of "Serbian Primate". Also this archdiocese and this customary title have existed before the 12th century. Now ask yourself why has there never in history existed a legitimate Croatian Orthodox Church It depends on what you mean by legitimate but that's the issue isn't it? The Serbian patriarchy would never recognize a contender for the Orthodox followers in their area of rule. That's what were saying. There are clearly non-Serbs that claim Orthodoxy as their religion but have to be formally part of the SOC , and as an extension , be mistaken for Serbian people.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 6, 2010 8:29:48 GMT -5
^Which is also the reason in 1900 the first Croatian Catholic Congress (and first Croatian national movement in history) was held in Zagreb, in which it was announced that anyone who speaks the Serbian language and is of Catholic confession, is an ethnic Croat. I believe Croatian national movements predate 1900 but I am unsure of the context of your statement. Anyway, by 1900 , the advent of Serbo-Croatian as a hybrid language was already recognized in Zagreb and thus it seems that 'Serbian' as a national language would only exist within the Kingdom of Serbia at the time. It doesn't seem likely that this congress would attempt to Croatise Catholic Serbs living in Serbia at the time. Unless you meant the multitudes of Catholics in Croatia that spoke 'Serbian.' That is another issue altogether and makes a strong, probably incorrect , assumption about people in Croatia.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 6, 2010 10:28:59 GMT -5
Letter of Bishop Fotije of Dalmatia to Croatian President Dr Ivo Josipovic 15. March 2010 - 16:28Honourable Mr. President, Let me congratulate You in my name and on behalf of the Diocese of Dalmatia on the recent election to the high office of the President of the Republic of Croatia with a desire to long and successfully perform this delicate and responsible duty. The reason of our written address to You is meritorious and honest need to point You at the possible danger of announced creation of the so-called Croatian Orthodox community and the yesterday's announcement in Zadar, that a so-called Croatian Orthodox Church will be soon formed. All this mentioned might seem completely unnecessary, and even our own concern about the formation of these associations, as we are witnesses that in democratic societies various associations are popping up like mushrooms after rain. However, it seems to us that in this case, however, is about something else and it is not so harmless. Above mentioned "Croatian Orthodox community" in its founding program has its foundation and historical source in Ante Pavelic's Independent State of Croatia (NDH). After the NDH, as we all know, numerous corpses, caves and camps were left, where innocent people were mostly killed just because they were of other religion or nation. The leader (poglavnik) of Ustashe Pavelic besides the atrocious crimes and the genocide against Serbs, Jews and Roma, in 1942 he formed the Croatian Orthodox Church with the aim of complete destruction and annihilation of Serbs and the Serbian Orthodox Church on the territory of Croatia. As we do not want to deal with the history much longer, we feel our human and pastoral duty to point out to You at the militant and Ustashe-like nature of this Community that is forming. This Community could contribute with its work and its possible acting to reawakening of the racial and religious intolerance theories, which are unpopular today, and even are prohibited by law in most democratic countries of Europe today. Our Church and Orthodox Serbs in the Diocese of Dalmatia after the recent tragic war, are trying to live by healing spiritual and material wounds, and also worrying about life and survival of our people, who has lived and are living in this region for centuries. Just when we have thought: "Behold the peace" and that "swords are unminted and plows are made" such a sinister association appears, that in its fundamental program has a denial of the another - currently the Serbs and the Serbian Orthodox Church. We hope that You will understand this our short address and that You will help with Your presidential authority to stop and suppress any registration of such association. This association itself does not bring peace or prosperity , but also heralds a new tragedy, from which no one would have use, especially not the Republic of Croatia and its citizens, who aim to join the EU. With great respect, www.spc.rs/eng/letter_bishop_fotije_dalmatia_croatian_president_dr_ivo_josipovic
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Post by andromeda on Dec 6, 2010 21:09:22 GMT -5
^^ What a hypocritical letter and its his finishing statement that discredited the rest of his letter. Read it again : We hope that You will understand this our short address and that You will help with Your presidential authority to stop and suppress any registration of such association. This association itself does not bring peace or prosperity , but also heralds a new tragedy, from which no one would have use, especially not the Republic of Croatia and its citizens, who aim to join the EU. ^^ Unconstitutional request. This Bishop speaks against religious intolerance and then requests the government act to suppress religious expression not in line with the Bishop's. It's a fool's letter though since Josipovic is an atheist anyway.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 6, 2010 22:02:21 GMT -5
^Which is also the reason in 1900 the first Croatian Catholic Congress (and first Croatian national movement in history) was held in Zagreb, in which it was announced that anyone who speaks the Serbian language and is of Catholic confession, is an ethnic Croat. I believe Croatian national movements predate 1900 but I am unsure of the context of your statement. Oh yeah? Name me one. Do you know why Croat linguists and scholars in 1850 went for a unified standard (Serbo-Croatian)? Because the majority in their country spoke Serbian! Stokavians are in a linguistic sense Serb and the Croats were so eager to slap this "Croatian" banner on these people that they accepted a hyphenated compromise. I don't see there being any other goal in mind...
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Dec 7, 2010 3:05:55 GMT -5
wink
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Post by vinjak on Dec 7, 2010 14:16:24 GMT -5
wink
something in your eye bitch ?
CoE on attacks on Serbs and Roma in Croatia 7 December 2010 | 16:22 | Source: Tanjug ZAGREB -- Ethnically-motivated attacks, on Serbs and Roma in particular, as well as the impunity of perpetrators continue to be a serious problem in Croatia.
At the same time the presence of national minorities in state administration is still unsatisfactory, reads an Opinion on Croatia issued by the Council of Europe Advisory Committee on the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.
“Many attacks (on the members of minority groups) are not reported due to a lack of trust in the police and justice systems. Racism and anti-Semitism plague Croatian football stadiums,” the report reads.
The report estimates that the functioning of the councils of national minorities is unsatisfactory, and suggests the revision of the legal framework and administrative practice.
The report voiced concern about the lack of respect for the right to proportional representation of persons belonging to national minorities in the public administration, the judiciary, local government and public enterprises.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 7, 2010 19:07:09 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movementAnd , perhaps as anecdote, the first Serbian national movement rose in the same century. I don't understand why its important to emphasize either in relation to the topic though. Pardon me for introducing at least a little objectivity into this but advancement of a unified Serbo-Croat language was sought by both sides. Stokavian as both a south slavic idiom and a general slavic idiom isn't exclusively Serbian and never was. 'Sto' is common in other Slavic languages as well as Cha , Kej , etc. Dialects in Croatia differed not only on the 'what?' level but in many other aspects as well. Language was not determined by nationalism or even ethnicity because it predated both. It was determined by region and the interaction of the regions' peoples with others. The Stokavian dialect already had a rich literary tradition among Croatian academia ( and there really was no Serbian equivalent at the time) long before the emergence of Neo-Stokavian ( Serbo-Croatian). Also what does this have to do with the topic at hand anyway? Why does it have to degenerate into poorly constructed argument for the Serbian monopolization of Stokavian and , as an extension , of Stokavian speakers = Serbs? This argument was shown false and full of holes many times over and is only still seriously considered by the most eager of Serbian nationalists. Seriously I could delve into the entire history of the stokavsko dialect even beyond its Croatian and Serbian incarnations but I find it a bore to be honest. Perhaps but proceeding actions of the congress seem to suggest otherwise. The Croatian and Serbian dominate parties worked together all the way up to the end of WW1. At the time they still lived in AH and found it mutually beneficial to stress their similarities rather than differences in order to have a stronger voice in the Empire. After WW1 , the Serbians were no longer the minority and no longer needed any tactical alliances with any Croatian organizations since the whole of the land was annexed to the Kingdom of Serbia ( later Yugoslavia).
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 7, 2010 21:35:20 GMT -5
On 6 March 1993, Juraj Kolaric, dean of the Catholic Faculty of Theology in Zagreb, was reported by the Tanjug news agency as stating that the "Orthodox Church in Croatia should be organized along the Macedonian principle, with its patriarch, and break away as far as territory was concerned, from Serbia”. Kolaric had several times tried to start an initiative to start such a church and that it should be started by the "Croat Orthodox believers and possible Croatian Orthodox clergy, because then all the conditions for an autocephalous church would be met." He claimed that if a church was formed it would eventually by recognized by the Patriarch of Constantinople because the Serb Orthodox Church would never be present in Croatia again. Kolaric claimed that his statements were not influenced by the Roman Catholic Church. The initiatives of Kolaric for the creation of such a church was protested by the Serbian Orthodox Church several times. Also some members of the Catholic Church in Croatia (such as the archpriest in Zagreb) also protested such an action.
In the 1990s there were reports that the Croatian president after Operation Storm was planning to create a Croatian Orthodox Church, because the Serb population had been forced out by Croatians and some churches, monasteries and religious structures in Croatia that were associated with the Orthodox Church were destroyed by Croatians. There is much evidence to support this, since Croatian leadership would have likely known that such an action would create a negative image of Croatia abroad. The evidence in support of this, is when HRT (Croatian Radio Television) aired several segments on TV in which they mentioned monasteries in Croatia as belonging to the Croatian Orthodox Church.[citation needed] Dr. Adalbert Rebic, Dean of the Theological College in Zagreb, appeared on a show in which he called for the creation of such a church.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 7, 2010 21:47:07 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movementAnd , perhaps as anecdote, the first Serbian national movement rose in the same century. I don't understand why its important to emphasize either in relation to the topic though. Pardon me for introducing at least a little objectivity into this but advancement of a unified Serbo-Croat language was sought by both sides. Stokavian as both a south slavic idiom and a general slavic idiom isn't exclusively Serbian and never was. 'Sto' is common in other Slavic languages as well as Cha , Kej , etc. Dialects in Croatia differed not only on the 'what?' level but in many other aspects as well. Language was not determined by nationalism or even ethnicity because it predated both. It was determined by region and the interaction of the regions' peoples with others. The Stokavian dialect already had a rich literary tradition among Croatian academia ( and there really was no Serbian equivalent at the time) long before the emergence of Neo-Stokavian ( Serbo-Croatian). Also what does this have to do with the topic at hand anyway? Why does it have to degenerate into poorly constructed argument for the Serbian monopolization of Stokavian and , as an extension , of Stokavian speakers = Serbs? This argument was shown false and full of holes many times over and is only still seriously considered by the most eager of Serbian nationalists. Seriously I could delve into the entire history of the stokavsko dialect even beyond its Croatian and Serbian incarnations but I find it a bore to be honest. Perhaps but proceeding actions of the congress seem to suggest otherwise. The Croatian and Serbian dominate parties worked together all the way up to the end of WW1. At the time they still lived in AH and found it mutually beneficial to stress their similarities rather than differences in order to have a stronger voice in the Empire. After WW1 , the Serbians were no longer the minority and no longer needed any tactical alliances with any Croatian organizations since the whole of the land was annexed to the Kingdom of Serbia ( later Yugoslavia). It is simply a joke to suggest that Croatians were Illyrians. Croats are simply Slavs just like the rest of the Former Yugoslavs. Case Close
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Post by terroreign on Dec 7, 2010 22:39:45 GMT -5
^Which was also started by a German, Ljudevit Gaj lol
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