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Post by Shqipni13 on Apr 29, 2012 16:23:30 GMT -5
^It's common sense bro. But it doesn't fit the Serb nationalist agenda. They need multiple reasons, whether they are true or fables, to dislike us.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Apr 29, 2012 17:16:29 GMT -5
it seems like a very strange direction to channel all your energy and national agenda on...trying to discredit and downplay albanian history, what would one stand to gain from all this anyway
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Post by uz on Apr 29, 2012 17:17:59 GMT -5
^It's common sense bro. But it doesn't fit the Serb nationalist agenda. They need multiple reasons, whether they are true or fables, to dislike us. The Serb "nationalist" agenda has little, next to nothing to do with Albanians. This is what you guys need to understand. Certain individual expressing their opinion does not count for the overall mentality. Serbs understand the ALbanian position, by understanding that this position has little to do with our reality. When talking politics with Serbs in Serbia, the Albanian-phenomenon rarely if ever gets mentioned, we go deeper and a right-thinking mind cannot blame you guys.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 29, 2012 23:13:59 GMT -5
albaninism in relation to Serbdom, is like a lonely insignificant prostitute (albania) seating alone in the night, and being shed by the light of the moon (Serbia). Without the moon, the prostitute cannot even be sensed. She does not exist.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 30, 2012 1:57:05 GMT -5
"It just doesn’t add up for me that the arrival of a new semi-oriental people in the 11th century in any significant numbers went without notice. Albanians (a minority) couldn’t have converted the (majority) Romance and Slavic speaking populations already present there into an Albanian speaking population."
They did get noticed RD, and we are talking about the 11th century. So do you want to somewhat blend this arguement into convincing our readers that the Albanians were GHOSTLY and kept to themselves up in the mountains when the Slavs arrived in massive numbers during the 6th century. As was mentioned above, Slavs even contributed themselves to the Byzantine Empire, Justinian himself may have been a Slav because we find Slavic names amoungst some of his commanders. Do we find Albanians in the Byzantine ranks prior to the 11th century?
RD, Slavs have named the MAJORITY of your towns (established ones) named all the rivers, mountains etc....Why is there a lack of Albanian (Shqiptar), not saying Shqiptar in a derogatory manner, but to distinguish the exonym Albania.
I know you will find it hard to believe, but the previlaged position in the Ottoman Empire allowed Albanians to florish from being a small tribal mass around the Shkumbini to something we see today, the following is a good piece of information that will explain how the Serbs of kosovo went through the process of assimilation during Ottoman times:
More widespread conversion to Islam took place in the 17th and the first half of 18th centuries, when ethnic Albanians began to wield more influence on political events in these regions. Many Serbs accepted Islamization as a necessary evil, waiting for the moment when they could revert to the faith of their ancestors, but most of them never lived to see that day. The first few generations of Islamized Serbs preserved their language and observed their old customs (especially slava - the family patron saint day, and the Easter holiday).
But several generations later, owing to a strong ethnic Albanian environment, they gradually began adopting the Albanian dress to safety, and outside their narrow family circle they spoke the Albanian language. Thus came into being a special kind of social mimicry which enabled converts to survive.
Albanization began only when Islamized Serbs, who were void of national feeling, married girls from ethnic Albanian tribal community. For a long time Orthodox Serbs called their Albanized compatriots Arnautasi, until the memory of their Serbian origin waned completely, though old customs and legends about their ancestors were passed on from one generation to the next.
For a long time the Arnautasi felt neither like Turks nor ethnic Albanians, because their customs and traditions set them apart, and yet they did not feel like Serbs either, who considered Orthodoxy to be their prime national trait. Many Arnautasi retained their old surnames until the turn of the last century. In Drenica the Arnautasi bore such surnames as Dokic, Velic, Marusic, Zonic, Racic, Gecic, which unquestionably indicated their Serbian origin.
The situation was similar in Pec and its surroundings where many Islamized and Albanized Serbs carries typically Serbian surnames: Stepanovic, Bojkovic, Dekic, Lekic, Stojkovic, etc. The eastern parts of Kosovo and Metohia, with their compact Serbian settlements, were the last to undergo Islamization. The earliest Islamization in Upper Morava and Izmornik is pinpointed as taking place in the first decades of the 18th century, and the latest in 1870s.
Toponyms in many ethnic Albanian villages in Kosovo show that Serbs had lived there the preceding centuries, and in some places Orthodox cemeteries were shielded against desecrators by ethnic Albanians themselves, because they knew that the graves of their own ancestors lay there.
In the late 18th century, all the people of Gora, the mountain region near Prizren were converted to Islam. However they succeeded in preserving their language and avoiding Albanization. There were also cases of conversion of Serbs to Islam in the second half of 19th century, especially during the Crimean War, again to save their lives, honor and property, though far more pronounced at the time was the process of emigration, since families, sometimes even entire villages, fled to Serbia or Montenegro.
Fearing the renewed Serbian state, Kosovo (Albanian) pashas engaged in ruthless persecution in an effort to reduce number of Serbs living in their spacious holdings. A French travel writer was astounded by the utter anarchy and ferocity of the local pashas towards the Christians. Jashar-pasha Gjinolli of Prishtina was one of the worst, destroying several churches in Kosovo, seizing monastic lands and killing monks.
In just a few years of sweeping terror, he evicted more than seventy Serbian villages between Vucitrn and Gnjilane...dividing up the seized land among the local Islamized population and mountain folk that had settled there from northern Albanian.
The fertile plains of Kosovo became desolate meadows as the Malisor highlanders, unused to farming knew not to cultivate. Extensive anthropo-geographic research indicates that about 30% of the present-day ethnic Albanian population of Kosovo and Metohia is of Serbian origin.
F.C.H.L Pouqueville French traveller and writer
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 30, 2012 2:21:29 GMT -5
"albaninism in relation to Serbdom, is like a lonely insignificant prostitute (albania) seating alone in the night, and being shed by the light of the moon (Serbia). Without the moon, the prostitute cannot even be sensed. She does not exist."
Brate, the Albanians have a paranoia complex about history, we Serbs, on the other hand don't give a rats, we boast proudly of our arrival during the 6th century.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 30, 2012 2:46:18 GMT -5
"it is simply inconceivable that albanians having arrived in the penninsula 5 centuaries later than serbs have more hellenic and latin linguistic traces in their tongue...that's your second red flag!"
Right, O.k Atd, and linguists PLACE Shqip with the EASTERN BRANCH of I.E Langauges, like Slavic, a Satem language. Shqip has its origins from the EAST!
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Apr 30, 2012 4:08:42 GMT -5
albaninism in relation to Serbdom, is like a lonely insignificant prostitute (albania) seating alone in the night, and being shed by the light of the moon (Serbia). Without the moon, the prostitute cannot even be sensed. She does not exist. first of all no one is interested in your former occupation and what exactly does 'without the moon, the prostitute cannot even be sensed' mean? picko you are one spectacular moron, you are an imbecile right down to your core, the only thing more abyssmal than your thought process is your command of english.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Apr 30, 2012 4:27:58 GMT -5
"it is simply inconceivable that albanians having arrived in the penninsula 5 centuaries later than serbs have more hellenic and latin linguistic traces in their tongue...that's your second red flag!" Right, O.k Atd, and linguists PLACE Shqip with the EASTERN BRANCH of I.E Langauges, like Slavic, a Satem language. Shqip has its origins from the EAST! slavic and albanian languages are nothing alike apart from a handful of similiar words...what do u mean by albanian has its origins from the east? are you a qualified linguist to make such statements? what studies have you done lately to claim such a thing? can you provide any evidence of such a claim? knowing you novi i have a feeling you didn't just pluck things out of thin air so there must be sme truth to this, i am waiting to be enlightened by how albanians is derived from the slavic tongue.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 30, 2012 4:58:00 GMT -5
^ and are you a qualified linguist to refute a *Satem* claim by linguists?
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Apr 30, 2012 5:17:14 GMT -5
no, i have enough sense to not make any claims and be stubborn about things i have not enough knowledge on unlike you,
as far as i know satem is a general classification of languages within the indo european family, albanian is thought to fall under that category but as far as i know it has nothing to do with slavic
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 30, 2012 5:45:03 GMT -5
"albaninism in relation to Serbdom, is like a lonely insignificant prostitute (albania) seating alone in the night, and being shed by the light of the moon (Serbia). Without the moon, the prostitute cannot even be sensed. She does not exist." Brate, the Albanians have a paranoia complex about history, we Serbs, on the other hand don't give a rats, we boast proudly of our arrival during the 6th century. Novi bro, i frankly believe that the Serbian spirit was very much alive many years before the 6th century.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Apr 30, 2012 7:12:29 GMT -5
your english is attrocious picko
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Post by realitydysfunction on Apr 30, 2012 7:23:21 GMT -5
They did get noticed RD, and we are talking about the 11th century. So do you want to somewhat blend this arguement into convincing our readers that the Albanians were GHOSTLY and kept to themselves up in the mountains when the Slavs arrived in massive numbers during the 6th century. As was mentioned above, Slavs even contributed themselves to the Byzantine Empire, Justinian himself may have been a Slav because we find Slavic names amoungst some of his commanders. Do we find Albanians in the Byzantine ranks prior to the 11th century? RD, Slavs have named the MAJORITY of your towns (established ones) named all the rivers, mountains etc....Why is there a lack of Albanian (Shqiptar), not saying Shqiptar in a derogatory manner, but to distinguish the exonym Albania. Novi, yes the Arbanitas (Shqiptarët) got noticed for being there, not for arriving there. There’s nothing to say the 'Albanians' mentioned by Attaliates are the ancestors of the Shqiptar Albs, especially considering that both the Byzantines and Attaliates himself use the term Arbanitas to specifically refer to us (indicating a distinction between Albanian and Arbanit). But either way, neither these Albanians nor the Arbanitas are ever shown to have come from Caucasus or anywhere else for the matter, afaik. I still don’t understand where some of you guys get that from (and I am not saying that you personally do, in all of this I am not so much arguing with your personal beliefs, it’s more of a pitching of ideas). In other words, even assuming that the Shqiptar Albs actually came from somewhere else, what evidence leads you to believe they came from Caucasus/East Anatolia? Where is the connection? If you have anything concrete on this, I would really like to see it. The Albanians have been rather ghostly as far as Slavs were concerned, 'small fry' as you say. It was Byzantines that noticed us first, not the Slavs. It was Comnena in 1081, while the Serbs recorded the Arbanasi more than a century later in 1198. There is no mention of a defeated Albanian army allowed to settle around Shkumbini at any time. Yes, you are true; Slavs did come in force in the 6th century and tipped the balances in Balkan. Slavs came where there had been none before; instead there had been Greeks, Illyrians, Thrakians and the Romanized Illyrians along the Adriatic. Sure, the sea of Slavs had a big impact on the area, they settled in the fields and valleys and started re-naming places that were previously inhabited and named by the true natives. Ultimately the Slavs even contributed to the Byzantine Empire, although I think history records Emperor Justinian as a Latin-speaking IllyroThrakas. Obviously, I couldn’t say that any Albanians as such were among the Byzantine ranks; but there certainly were Illyrians that contributed to both the Roman and Byzantine Empires. Since you don’t accept any sort of continuity between Illyrians and Albanians, your reading would be that there were no Albanians to be found anywhere. I hold the opposite view, which in its most simplified form sees Albanians as an outcropping of the Illyrians. I am not pulling this out of my ass either. Plenty of scholars say this. www.amazon.com/Sprachbund-Morpho-Syntactic-Features-Language-Linguistic/dp/1402044879 www.amazon.com/Grammars-Contact-Cross-Linguistic-Explorations-Linguistic/dp/0199207836Wilkes, on his work on the Illyrians, page 279 says: "The smaller number of Slav loans relates to dwelling, agriculture and cattle-rearing. Plant names of Slav origins suggest that contacts took place when Albanians dwelt in the forest zone between 600 and 900 metes in altitude, while the words relating to the products of higher altitudes, including milk, are Albanian. This implies a pattern of seasonal movement between pastures, similar to that recorded for the Dalmatian Mavrovlachs who journeyed to the Adriatic towns with cheese and wool to exchange for the invaluable salt. This pattern of existence explains the late entry of the Albanians in the historical record, during the years 1040 to 1080, when Arbanites are found serving in the Imperial army. If the Komani-Kruja cemeteries represent a Romanized Christian population bordered by new Slav settlements on the north and south, then the ancestors of the historical Albanians were pastoral communities on the higher ground behind the plains. The tripartite linguistic division of the area has been recognized in some late medieval documents relating to the Shkodër region." I'll see what I can do to take up the rest of your points.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 30, 2012 8:30:36 GMT -5
Those clowns who keep iterating this idiotic balkan "sprachbund" theory, miss the fact that ALL indoeuropean languages of the balkans : - SERBIAN - GREEK - LATIN Had, still have (except maybe for vlah), and most probably will continue to have declensions.
There is absolutely no such thing as balkan "sprachbund".
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Post by realitydysfunction on Apr 30, 2012 9:27:43 GMT -5
Those clowns who keep iterating this idiotic balkan "sprachbund" theory, miss the fact that ALL indoeuropean languages of the balkans : - SERBIAN - GREEK - LATIN Had, still have (except maybe for vlah), and most probably will continue to have declensions. There is absolutely no such thing as balkan "sprachbund". ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) Pyrros, first you inspired us as a Prophet, then you stirred us as a Poet, and now you put light in our eyes as a Professor!
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Apr 30, 2012 11:05:44 GMT -5
who can forget such classics as 'without the moon, the prostitute cannot even be sensed'
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Post by Shqipni13 on Apr 30, 2012 15:49:32 GMT -5
Pyrros, what would you be without Serbia? Whose nuts would you cling onto if it wasn't for the almighty Serb? You self hating, shit eating, undersized, prebuscent looking clown.
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Post by uz on Apr 30, 2012 17:07:15 GMT -5
^ Probably Bulgaria/Bulgarians.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on Apr 30, 2012 18:46:05 GMT -5
good stuff RD, you seem to be very keen on the age old serb enemy...SOURCES!
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