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Post by uz on Apr 30, 2012 19:09:44 GMT -5
I am not ablel to open that doc. from where I am now (I will later), but I will say this. Prior to Ottoman occupation the population of Serbs in Kosovo was a clear majority as centuries of oppression rolled by those numbers dropped, while the population of Albanians were increasing dramatically.
14th century
1321-1331
89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded of which
- 3 Albanian settlements (3,3%) - 86 Serbian settlements (96,6%)
2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households:
-44 Albanian households (2%) -2,122 Serbian households (98%)
15th century
-13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns -75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages -46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages -17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages -5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vuèitrn -1 Jewish dwelling in Vuèitrn -1 Croat dwelling
19th century
-318,000 Serbs (64%), -161,000 Albanians (32%), -10,000 Roma (Gypsies) and Circassians -2,000 Turks
I am not going to jump the gun and say Albanians were privelaged during the Ottoman times, but the Albanians surely had an advantage over the Serbs (perhaps religion was the reason-most likely). Then there's WWII and the S.S division in Kosovo. Serbs have been systematically removed from Kosovo for centuries, by the looks of the numbers and considering the circumstances it makes me wonder how there is Serbs still there at all. Also as a side note; Tito's Yugoslavia guranteed security for Albanians and their cultural inheritance, while ignoring Serbian pleas and devastation. -- as I said; It was about keeping the peace.
After Tito died, within that year all hell broke loose.
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Post by realitydysfunction on Apr 30, 2012 19:35:54 GMT -5
I am not ablel to open that doc. from where I am now (I will later), but I will say this. Prior to Ottoman occupation the population of Serbs in Kosovo was a clear majority as centuries of oppression rolled by those numbers dropped, while the population of Albanians were increasing dramatically. UZ, you will be happy to know that, among other things, I essentially said the same thing. At some point Serb numbers were dropping and the Albanian numbers were going up. There's no doubt that Serbs have been in Kosovo for a long time and that it is very central to Serb national consciousness. But that's a separate issue and has not much to do with issue of the origins and spread of the Albanian people. I am not speculating on the deeper history of the region. I am trying to express some of my thoughts - devoid of political content - on a certain narrative that says that Albanians were foreign Johnny-come-lately in Balkan and that the Turks were the chief impetus that favored our expansion, when instead Albanian were homegrown and present all the way to Greece before and despite the Turks. I don't think I am arguing out of blind nationalism either. I don't think our personal life or national problems would magically resolve if one side or the other could just only prove that they were here first. Slavs arrived in the 6th century and they can be proud of it, there's nothing really 'wrong' with that. Even if the Albanians had come in the 11th century, there's nothing really wrong with that either, I would be just as proud. I just don't happen to think that's the case. I have brought here some of my sources for having this belief and I dare say they are not dinky sources. This isn't Kaplan Resolli s**t, it's not middle-of-the-mall s**t ;D , I believe my sources are fair, varied, legit and scholarly, and there's a lot of them.
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Post by uz on Apr 30, 2012 21:04:26 GMT -5
"albaninism in relation to Serbdom, is like a lonely insignificant prostitute (albania) seating alone in the night, and being shed by the light of the moon (Serbia). Without the moon, the prostitute cannot even be sensed. She does not exist." Brate, the Albanians have a paranoia complex about history, we Serbs, on the other hand don't give a rats, we boast proudly of our arrival during the 6th century. Novi bro, i frankly believe that the Serbian spirit was very much alive many years before the 6th century. Yes, but this does not necessarily mean we were in the Balkans prior to the 6th century. Serbs have carried this tribe-name long before their arrival into the Balkans. I am sure you know how far and wide that "name" can possibly go.... RD; Looks like my post was too soon lol. I have no problem with Albanians being "indeginous" (just want to get that out of the way) I think it's irrelevent to us and our peoples' today. Nope, you're not. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 1, 2012 0:34:43 GMT -5
certain zombies here consume (negative) energy which they don't seem to possess in the first place. lol
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 1, 2012 4:21:58 GMT -5
^ RD, l'm having problems opening up your attachments, word is stating that it cannot read the content. To continue with the topic, when l'm saying privilages, yes, Albanians did have many of them, especially for their conversion to Islam and their loyality to the Ottoman Empire. Their loyality and religion gave them power over the dhimmis of the Balkans, i.e, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians (second class christians)etc...Considering the position of the Albanian region in the Balkans, the Ottomans gave them power, we can see this in the many and many Albanians who served as pashas or Grand Viziers, have a look from this Wiki quote: Albania was under Ottoman rule from the middle of the 15th century until 1912. During this period a major part of the Albanian population converted to Islam.[1] Albanians as part of the Ottoman Empire were relatively small part of the total population, however, a disproportionate number of people of Albanian origin served in high positions in the Ottoman army and administration, while more than thirty Grand Vizier were Albanians.[2] Out of 292 total Gran Viziers, 37 where of Albanian origin (12.67%).en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Albanian_Grand_ViziersPS Hence why the Albanians of the late 19th century were absolutely paranoid of a Ottoman withdrawral from the Balkans, they knew all their powers will be removed from them. This disproportionate amount of ruling Albanians allowed this class to EXERT pressure of their dhimmi class, i.e, the Serbian Mijak tribe of Albania was completely assimilated into an Albanian nation etc....
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 1, 2012 9:32:23 GMT -5
In fact, we ended up with the most backward and industrially challenged nation in all of Europe, once it was all said and done. That's because of your inherent inefficiencies. Albanians and Greeks have enjoyed the greatest foreign help among the nations of the region. Not surprisingly, Greeks and Albs are the most backward and technically illiterate nations of the balkans. In history, "coincidences" rarely truly just happen.
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on May 1, 2012 10:40:30 GMT -5
faggots like you are a rare commodity picko
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 1, 2012 14:28:08 GMT -5
^ RD, l'm having problems opening up your attachments, word is stating that it cannot read the content. I am re-posting then, with minor re-arrangements from the docs. Again, we have different perspectives on what ‘privileged position’ was or what it meant for Albanian and Serbs in the Ottoman Empire. I think you are coming at it from a more narrow perspective as it relates to the case of Kosovo. In that case, it could be said that although Albanians were present in low to moderate numbers in Kosovo, they did settle in larger numbers after Serbs migrated out in the 17th cent. ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/ottosrb.png) But these were events that happened too late in the game to explain or affect the overall extent or pattern of the Albanian presence in Balkan. As I have already pointed out, Albanians were migrating out of Albania as early as the 13th and 14th century often in response to Turkish expansion in Balkan. On occasion they were invited by Italian nobility such as King Ferdinand or Papal clergy officials (in the case of the Arbëresh in Italy) or by the Byzantines who offered to settle them in Attica and Peloponnesus (in the case of the Arvanitas). Obviously, the Albanians at this early time were not unwelcomed, unwanted pests. Just a couple of quick references: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-968X.1977.tb00350.x/abstractthe picture is too poor for me to post, but still very legible at the link, the link above writes: It is not too widely known that a majority of villages in the Athens area of Greece are inhabited by people of Albanian rather than Greek ethnic origin. These people are not recent immigrants, but are the descendants of the Albanians who entered the country at various times, for the most part between the 11th and 15th centuries. Article is by Peter Trudgill, writing for "Transactions of the Philological Society" Volume 75, Issue 1, pages 32–50, Nov. 1977. and also this, from a book called "Progress in Language Planning" cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2018923What, from your point of view, is an Albanian population expansion, you guys are missing the fact this was only one wing of the Albanian expansion. Our other wing was already in Greece and Italy, before the Turks, despite the Turks and even in response to incoming Turkish reprisals. While the Albanians took the opportunity to expand in the vacuum left by the departure of Serbs, this was only a pocket of Albanians, which only later would have great political consequences. The waves of Albanians migrating out of Albania have been long enough and large enough, sometimes trickling and sometimes intensifying, that I personally cannot reconcile it with the view that the original Albanians were only arrived as small band of several thousands around Shkumbin in the 11th century. If you hypothesize a small enough number of Albanians arriving without attracting notice, they couldn't have been culturally superior and military strong enough to turn the table on the Romans and Slavs already there. The few cannot contend with the many, the weak do not win against the strong. I understand you think we only gained prominence because the Ottoman Turks took us under their wings and sponsored our expansion, but I don't think that's the case. So, the impression that is formed in my mind is that of early Albanian population waves radiating out of the central Albanian homeland into Italy (Arbëresh), from Albania into Greece (Arvanitas), and later into Turkey (Arnavuts). Wherever they went, they carried their Albanian dialect with them, they formed villages or towns and became bilingual groups, contributing to their new home-nations and not turning into efficient breeding bunnies with dreams of an Albanian Empire. The only population flows seem to be out of Albania into the neighboring lands. The reverse population flow has never been recorded. Also, Atdhetari made a good point. All these outgoing population movements left behind enough Albanians to hold the fort, so to speak (which argues against a small number of original Albanian settlers). Whenever a people move out, they leave behind traces (people, buildings, placenames, etc.) of where they came from and where they stopped on the journey. We cannot point anywhere on the world map and find any evidence whatsoever of Albanians having lived anywhere else besides Balkan. There are no such historic, linguistic, archaeological, or cultural traces in Caucasus or elsewhere. It is incredibly hard for me to believe that the Albanian people were uprooted completely from one far-away place, leaving behind no man woman or child, and settled en-mass in another place leaving no trace of neither origins nor transit. ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/albmyth74.png) ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/albmythkavkaz75.png) this is the source book for the above, books.google.com/books?id=RnDeHFOX8yIC&pg=PA75&dq=proponents+caucasian+theory+engaged+wishful+thinking&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uh6fT_PdAYzg8ATgyb2eAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=proponents%20caucasian%20theory%20engaged%20wishful%20thinking&f=falseI'll follow up with some more thoughts on the conversion to Islam, the privileges and the linguistic arguments, as the time allows for it.
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 1, 2012 15:41:38 GMT -5
I think the Ottoman benefits package was a mixed bag; I guess you could say that Albanians enjoyed some advantages in some areas but lost out in other directions. On the whole, I don’t think that we were a lot more priviledged than the other Balkan nations, muslim or non. For whatever reason, Balkan region contributed greatly to the Ottoman empire, but the Albanians were not the only muslims, and there were plenty Serb vezirs and soldiers and Greek-Byzantine administrators in the Empire. ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/imperkast29.png) ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/imperkast41.png) ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/imperkast42.png) ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/imperkast43.png) Rereading the Black Legend: The Discourses of Religious and Racial ... By Margaret Rich Greer, Walter Mignolo, Maureen Quilligan www.amazon.com/Rereading-Black-Legend-Discourses-Renaissance/dp/0226307220/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335904056&sr=8-1You had your share of vezirs and we had ours, although it would seem there was a larger number of Alb Muslim vizirs. That doesn't say a whole lot as being beneficial to the Albanian people, as I don't think these vizirs were working for any Alb cause. In the end, people got to be vizirs because they were capable administrators of the needs and wishes of the Empire, or in the very least they had to be terribly good at court intrigue. As I have already acknowledged, Albanians had the chance to expand into KiM when the Serbs were compelled to leave; I guess we could chalk that up as a "benefit", but this was more of an opportunistic event rather than a special privileges case. Other than that, I believe the Albanian population was already well established and didn’t grow much faster than any of the neighbors. It’s a little bit hard to imagine Albanians, at any time, as a privileged class. For most of our history we’ve been ridden pretty hard ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) but I guess by virtue of converting to Islam, we could reap some benefits in the form of easier taxes, keeping personal weapons, manning the forts, some freedom of movement, advancement. Maybe another benefit was that, in the absence of strong religious identity and commitment, conversion also provided a way to protect the language and some form of ethnic identity. In the final analysis, Albanians did not wield any real economic or political power. We mostly suffered a drain of manpower as the able and bright turned their achievements for the benefit of the Empire. If we had any real say in running the Ottoman empire for our benefit, we would not have ended up as the most under-developed country in Europe when the chips fell. We barely got to keep a nation together, and it looked like something that had barely come out of the Middle Ages. The Ottomans (and our own Alb vizirs) invested next to nothing in Albania, they always saw it (and Montenegro) as a barbarian frontier, a buffer zone only worth planting forts to keep the rebellions down. More to follow.
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 1, 2012 16:12:36 GMT -5
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 1, 2012 17:35:23 GMT -5
I also think we need to re-evaluate both the nature, the extent and the impact of conversion to Islam in Albania. Unlike Serbia and Greece, which have been monolithic orthodox nations with a strong developed church traditions and active clergymen, Albania was already split between the Catholic North and Orthodox South. Religion from a practical point of view is nothing more than a puppet show for the masses and a potential vehicle for foreign influence (It’s how the Popes could dictate and influence policy in Catholic countries; Muslim jihad, etc.) Since Albania already had a religious schism, with different foreign powers vying for control over the people’s minds(Roman Catholicism and Byzantine Orthodox), there was already this idea that religions compete against each other and one tends to ally with the larger powers, and it lacks the unifying nationalistic drive of a single religion. When two different classes exist in competition against each other, it’s also easier for a third party to come in and play them off each other. That is a broad-strokes picture of what happened once the Ottoman Turks militarily defeated and conquered Balkan. The influence of the Christian powers declined, their missionary workers withdrew, leaving the population under a vacuum, which Islam offered to fill. Incidentally, Catholicism in Albania thrived in areas where Franciscan Monks continued with their missionary work. However, on the larger scale, once the social and land-owner elites converted in order to maintain power, the masses followed because of tax benefits, rights to bear arms, opportunities for social mobility and economic advancement and the like. So, through a combination of the ‘carrot’ and the ‘stick’ people converted. Even then, in many cases, the conversion was an outward show; people made a show of being converted while keeping their allegiance to Christ at heart. In the long run though, the show became the reality, as after a few generations have passed then they start forgetting the ways of their ancestors. Similar to what you described about the Serbs that switched to speaking Albanian, and after a while ethnic amnesia claimed them into the Albanian fold. One additional ‘benefit’ of converting to Islam was that it may have served as a sort of shelter, protecting the Albanian language and ethnic identity from being swallowed up. My personal feeling is that Albanians have a strong pagan streak (the evil eye, and so on – as do a lot of Balkan people, really), but having had to live with different religions groups, we never acquire the connection between religion and ethnic and national identity, as our neighbors did. ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/prekristian.png) As a reminder, we tore down almost every church and mosque during our communist years. These are not the actions of a ‘predominantly Muslim people’, nor of a people with a defined religious commitment at all; they are just the actions of a people trying to strike that happy balance between means and ends. It’s all means to an end, nothing more. Albanians were paranoid about Ottoman withdrawal from Balkan for a variety of reasons. Not least among which was that we were being threatened by Montenegrin, Serb and Greek territorial ambitions. Frankly fellas, until 1945 Albania was up for grabs, it’s no wonder we are a bit paranoid. (Do you fellas honestly think things would have worked out peachy for you if Yugoslavia extended to Shkumbin and you ended up with a couple million angry Albanians inside your borders?). ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/socrestrukt5750.png)
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 1, 2012 17:50:48 GMT -5
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Post by Shqipni13 on May 1, 2012 17:52:34 GMT -5
^Kthehu prap ne Shqiperi o vëlla. Populli kërkon udhheq.
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 1, 2012 17:54:20 GMT -5
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 1, 2012 18:13:46 GMT -5
I had intended to do a longer write up of the Alb linguistic argument, but the exigencies of my own schoolwork compel me to just give it a couple of lines and quickie sources. It doesn't take a lot of forward-thinking to realize that probably in the end "we'll just agree to disagree", which is fine also. Everyone has a bias, and I have my Albanian slant. If what I have brought to bear by now doesn't affect anyone's views, chances are pretty good nothing more I can say will make a difference. Again, I will say that these are the views that I have formed in my readings and I am not asking anyone to "believe" me or take my point of view for granted. I just wanted to put my thoughts on the record, so to speak. ![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/dialekt1876.png) source: Soziolinguistik: Ein Internationales Handbuch Zur Wissenschaft Von Sprache... Editors: Ulrich Ammon, Norbert Dittmar, Klaus J. Mattheier, page 1876 books.google.com/books?id=LMZm0w0k1c4C&pg=PA1876&dq=common+albanian+split+two+major+dialcet+complex&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9mygT_eGNoyq8AS-97GZAQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false![](http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/unknown-1.png) Thanks Novi for the pleasant chat. I learned a little bit more and I hope something stayed with you too. I will humbly bow out of this thread and leave it in the hands of Pyrros and his mandolin, serenading prostitutes by the moonlight ;D
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 2, 2012 0:00:48 GMT -5
Tomic: "Albanian were pushed up the mountains"Seriously, l cannot buy this arguement RD, for Albanians to decide to migrate up in the mountains which Slavs named them and then later Albanians comming down and calling these same mountains after which Slavs named them is ridiculous, don't you agree? "Yes, you are true; Slavs did come in force in the 6th century and tipped the balances in Balkan. Slavs came where there had been none before; instead there had been Greeks, Illyrians, Thrakians and the Romanized Illyrians along the Adriatic. Sure, the sea of Slavs had a big impact on the area, they settled in the fields and valleys and started re-naming places that were previously inhabited and named by the true natives. Ultimately the Slavs even contributed to the Byzantine Empire, although I think history records Emperor Justinian as a Latin-speaking IllyroThrakas."
Slavs even settled in the mountains (they named these mountains). These prior topoymns cannot be translated with the Albanian language, nor can the Albanian language be able to translate the current Slavic topoymns. So again what ever is presented to us here that explains prior 11th century Albanian inhabitation of the area is either a myth or some speculation.
"Obviously, I couldn’t say that any Albanians as such were among the Byzantine ranks; but there certainly were Illyrians that contributed to both the Roman and Byzantine Empires. Since you don’t accept any sort of continuity between Illyrians and Albanians, your reading would be that there were no Albanians to be found anywhere. I hold the opposite view, which in its most simplified form sees Albanians as an outcropping of the Illyrians."
Again, there isn't ANY evidence that Albanian (Shqiptar) are direct decendants of Illyrians, we have a huge gap been the last recordings of Illyrians and the FIRST recording of the Albanian (shqiptar) group. It amazes me that you seem to believe that the Albanian (Shqiptar) group could be undetected for such a long time without getting noticed by Byzantines, Slavs or even Romanised populations, but just hid themselves up in the caves of central albania for 800 years, c'mon, this is stupidity at its best. Wilkes, on his work on the Illyrians, page 279 says: "The smaller number of Slav loans relates to dwelling, agriculture and cattle-rearing. Plant names of Slav origins suggest that contacts took place when Albanians dwelt in the forest zone between 600 and 900 metes in altitude, while the words relating to the products of higher altitudes, including milk, are Albanian. This implies a pattern of seasonal movement between pastures, similar to that recorded for the Dalmatian Mavrovlachs who journeyed to the Adriatic towns with cheese and wool to exchange for the invaluable salt.
This pattern of existence explains the late entry of the Albanians in the historical record, during the years 1040 to 1080, when Arbanites are found serving in the Imperial army. If the Komani-Kruja cemeteries represent a Romanized Christian population bordered by new Slav settlements on the north and south, then the ancestors of the historical Albanians were pastoral communities on the higher ground behind the plains. The tripartite linguistic division of the area has been recognized in some late medieval documents relating to the Shkodër region."RD, if this is the case then Wilkes is hypocritical because he does say the following: "In the matter of physical character, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries suggests no more than average height (male 1.65 m; female 1.53). Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians." John Wilkes The Peoples of Europe: The Illyrians Page: 219 1992 Blackwell Publishers Wilkes does say something quite contrary to your understanding ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) : "On the other hand, it is hoped that the unfortunate distortions which have marred outstanding progress in Albanian Archaeology will soon be corrected. As new guidebooks are demonstrating, the Albanian culture, as fascinating and varied as any in that quarter of Europe, is an inheritance from several languages, religions and ethnic groups known to have inhabited the region since prehistoric times, among whom were the Illyrians." John Wilkes The Illyrians Chapter: Prehistoric Illyrians Page: 280 Blackwell Publishers 1992 John Wilkes about language: "In the case of Illyrian, the problems appear to be multiplying: if Illyrian belongs not to the satem group but to the centum, the common etymology of Gentius and gens must be discarded. There is no evidence in fact that Illyrian belongs to the satem group but the argument that it does is crucial to the case that modern Albanian is descended from Illyrian." John Wilkes The Peoples of Europe: The Illyrians Page: 73 1992 Blackwell Publishers
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 2, 2012 0:05:16 GMT -5
RD, please man, don't give me works from Noel Malcolm. His a propagandist and l have no respect for his views they are politically motivated for the time of Yugoslav distruction.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 2, 2012 3:53:53 GMT -5
f*ggots like you are a rare commodity picko OTOH, monkeys are not exactly famous for their self-criticism.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 2, 2012 4:46:25 GMT -5
The mountain theory is a dumb theory, why, read the following from Elsie:
"Latin terms are indeed common for lowland trees, Slavic loans are noticeably common for highland trees, in particular for pines."
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 2, 2012 7:38:42 GMT -5
^^^ lol Novi bro, the same idiotic proud "mountain" theory is played by the grekalbs as well... Surprise!!! even in high mountains the toponyms are STILL SERBIAN!!!
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