Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 2, 2024 5:34:03 GMT -5
The History of the Gypsies (Roma)
summary by tammy.ai
EN
🔍 Unveiling the mysterious history of the marginalized Roma ethnic group in the Balkans and Europe.
00:18
The Roma, also known as Gypsies, have faced generations of stigma and prejudice, leading to a lack of research and understanding about their significant role in Balkan culture and history.
00:18
The origin of the Roma has been shrouded in mystery for centuries, with their presence in the Balkans dating back to the 13th century, coinciding with conflicts between the Seljuk Turks and the Byzantines.
01:05
📜 Origins of the Roma people as described in folklore from different cultures.
04:36
Speculations on the cursed origins of the Roma people from different perspectives.
04:36
Legends from Romanians and Serbs involving the construction of churches made of different materials.
05:10
⚒️ Gypsies as skilled artisans in the Ottoman Empire
08:48
Gypsies were employed as slave labor and became skilled artisans in the Balkans.
08:48
Their craftsmanship skills were highly valued by the local nobility and aristocracy.
09:39
Gypsy-made items filled the demand for artisan products in trade and commerce.
09:46
⛓️ Early enslavement of Roma people in the Balkans mirroring American slavery before African arrival.
13:24
Romania has the highest number of Roma people globally.
13:24
Different categories of slavery existed for Roma people, including house slaves and field slaves.
13:43
Male house slaves were often castrated to prevent threats, while female house slaves were used for sexual entertainment.
14:09
🔗 The gradual abolition of slavery among the Roma in Europe during the Industrial Revolution.
17:45
Slavery among the Roma was abolished in Western Europe due to the influence of the Industrial Revolution.
17:45
Various territories in Europe passed laws to free slaves and criminalize the practice, leading to the abolition of slavery among the Roma.
18:04
Students in Bucharest protested and voted for the abolition of slavery, granting newfound freedom to the Roma.
18:41
💔 Persecution of Roma in Germany leading to extermination during World War II.
22:17
Series of laws passed to control and dehumanize Roma, including forced labor camps and ID cards.
22:17
Introduction of sterilization, prohibition of intermarriage, and preparation for extermination of Roma.
23:01
Massacres, deportations, and extermination of Roma, similar to the fate of Jews during World War II.
23:14
🔥 Persecution and migration of Roma due to false accusations and vigilante justice in Eastern Europe.
26:43
Roma faced collective punishment and false accusations leading to vigilante justice in Eastern Europe.
26:43
Many Roma migrated to Western Europe, especially Germany, to escape persecution in their home countries.
EN
🔍 Unveiling the mysterious history of the marginalized Roma ethnic group in the Balkans and Europe.
00:18
The Roma, also known as Gypsies, have faced generations of stigma and prejudice, leading to a lack of research and understanding about their significant role in Balkan culture and history.
00:18
The origin of the Roma has been shrouded in mystery for centuries, with their presence in the Balkans dating back to the 13th century, coinciding with conflicts between the Seljuk Turks and the Byzantines.
01:05
📜 Origins of the Roma people as described in folklore from different cultures.
04:36
Speculations on the cursed origins of the Roma people from different perspectives.
04:36
Legends from Romanians and Serbs involving the construction of churches made of different materials.
05:10
⚒️ Gypsies as skilled artisans in the Ottoman Empire
08:48
Gypsies were employed as slave labor and became skilled artisans in the Balkans.
08:48
Their craftsmanship skills were highly valued by the local nobility and aristocracy.
09:39
Gypsy-made items filled the demand for artisan products in trade and commerce.
09:46
⛓️ Early enslavement of Roma people in the Balkans mirroring American slavery before African arrival.
13:24
Romania has the highest number of Roma people globally.
13:24
Different categories of slavery existed for Roma people, including house slaves and field slaves.
13:43
Male house slaves were often castrated to prevent threats, while female house slaves were used for sexual entertainment.
14:09
🔗 The gradual abolition of slavery among the Roma in Europe during the Industrial Revolution.
17:45
Slavery among the Roma was abolished in Western Europe due to the influence of the Industrial Revolution.
17:45
Various territories in Europe passed laws to free slaves and criminalize the practice, leading to the abolition of slavery among the Roma.
18:04
Students in Bucharest protested and voted for the abolition of slavery, granting newfound freedom to the Roma.
18:41
💔 Persecution of Roma in Germany leading to extermination during World War II.
22:17
Series of laws passed to control and dehumanize Roma, including forced labor camps and ID cards.
22:17
Introduction of sterilization, prohibition of intermarriage, and preparation for extermination of Roma.
23:01
Massacres, deportations, and extermination of Roma, similar to the fate of Jews during World War II.
23:14
🔥 Persecution and migration of Roma due to false accusations and vigilante justice in Eastern Europe.
26:43
Roma faced collective punishment and false accusations leading to vigilante justice in Eastern Europe.
26:43
Many Roma migrated to Western Europe, especially Germany, to escape persecution in their home countries.
some replies
@pipsonite
4 days ago (edited)
The answer to this might not be that simple. The word gypsy is often used as a slur, but it depends on the context. Among Romani (at least where i come from) the term is often used in conversation without malintent, depending on the language you converse in. Conversing in romani, the word would be "roma", but conversing in Slovene you would often say "cigan", meaning gypsy. I myself would not take it lightly if I hear someone saying it with malintent, but among friends it is accepted and i would retort with the same word.
When it comes to music, I see no problem with calling it "Gypsy Jazz". As a musician myself, I can immediately identify the music by this description alone and see no need to relabel it otherwise. Although the word "manouche" in some romani languages would mean "person" or "man", which is probably an attempt to make the term more culturaly acceptable, but as i said, I have no problem with calling it Gypsy Jazz and would actually prefer this term to any other.
@dragoncam13
6 days ago
@slxd100 also even the tatars were integrated well into lithuania and Poland despite being nomads
@slxd100
6 days ago
@dragoncam13 exactly! and some of these tatars were connected to the past huns and mongols, mortal enemies of any european countries they've raided/invaded, yet even those were spared in the end (at least some were spared). obviously, the history of the gypsies is unfortunate, specifically due to the impact the ottomans had on the whole thing, but it is what it is. no excuses when moving forward. no one had it easy at some point in time
@pipsonite
6 days ago
As a Slovenian gypsy (or half gypsy to be precise), I can say that the mentality of people as well as the overall picture has changed a lot since my childhood. I live in a gypsy village that resembles a typical local village with all the needed modern infrastructure (electricity, water, internet, proper housing...) and is considered one of the most advanced and organised romani settlements in the world. Also most people now have jobs and are getting educated. I myself have a college degree and work at a reputable company. The stigma is partially still there, but it is also easy to see that it can slowly but surely be erased if the correct steps are taken by society, both the gypsies and the rest.
6 days ago
As a Slovenian gypsy (or half gypsy to be precise), I can say that the mentality of people as well as the overall picture has changed a lot since my childhood. I live in a gypsy village that resembles a typical local village with all the needed modern infrastructure (electricity, water, internet, proper housing...) and is considered one of the most advanced and organised romani settlements in the world. Also most people now have jobs and are getting educated. I myself have a college degree and work at a reputable company. The stigma is partially still there, but it is also easy to see that it can slowly but surely be erased if the correct steps are taken by society, both the gypsies and the rest.
@yeargdribble
4 days ago
So I have a serious question for you. How do you feel about the term gypsy? You self identify that way. I'm curious because as a professional musician I see this coming up more and more when it related to the specific genre of "Gypsy Jazz." I get some people want do away with harmful words and be more sensitive, but this seems like one of those times when white people want to intervene in a performative way rather than actually caring what the people themselves thing.
I care a lot about this because black Americans really did have their own music (original jazz) sort of stolen and coopted by white people and then sort of white washed. That's my concern about Gypsy Jazz being relabeled as Jazz Manouche. I feel like in a way it robs the historical ownership of that style of music from the people even if that's not the intention behind it.
Obviously I feel like how a given people feel about the terms matter more than a bunch of well meaning white folks. You're just one person and no group is a monolith, but I'd really love your opinion on the topic since I just don't have access to a lot of people I can actually ask about their feelings on the terms Gypsy, Roma, Romani, and Jazz Manouche.
4 days ago
So I have a serious question for you. How do you feel about the term gypsy? You self identify that way. I'm curious because as a professional musician I see this coming up more and more when it related to the specific genre of "Gypsy Jazz." I get some people want do away with harmful words and be more sensitive, but this seems like one of those times when white people want to intervene in a performative way rather than actually caring what the people themselves thing.
I care a lot about this because black Americans really did have their own music (original jazz) sort of stolen and coopted by white people and then sort of white washed. That's my concern about Gypsy Jazz being relabeled as Jazz Manouche. I feel like in a way it robs the historical ownership of that style of music from the people even if that's not the intention behind it.
Obviously I feel like how a given people feel about the terms matter more than a bunch of well meaning white folks. You're just one person and no group is a monolith, but I'd really love your opinion on the topic since I just don't have access to a lot of people I can actually ask about their feelings on the terms Gypsy, Roma, Romani, and Jazz Manouche.
@pipsonite
4 days ago (edited)
The answer to this might not be that simple. The word gypsy is often used as a slur, but it depends on the context. Among Romani (at least where i come from) the term is often used in conversation without malintent, depending on the language you converse in. Conversing in romani, the word would be "roma", but conversing in Slovene you would often say "cigan", meaning gypsy. I myself would not take it lightly if I hear someone saying it with malintent, but among friends it is accepted and i would retort with the same word.
When it comes to music, I see no problem with calling it "Gypsy Jazz". As a musician myself, I can immediately identify the music by this description alone and see no need to relabel it otherwise. Although the word "manouche" in some romani languages would mean "person" or "man", which is probably an attempt to make the term more culturaly acceptable, but as i said, I have no problem with calling it Gypsy Jazz and would actually prefer this term to any other.
barney2x4
8 days ago
Although there are problems in the Gypsy community in Bulgaria (poverty, theft, prostitution, etc.) here is an interesting story - I was smoking with a co-worker of mine outside my office 4-5 years ago. A little gypsy kid, about 10 years old, was ridding a (non-electric) scooter nearby. I told him that he won't be able to jump over a curb nearby and this 10 year old became cocky as a 15 year old ("Who...me?! Ofcourse I can do it!" and the like). He gained speed and just barely jumped over the curb with his scooter and I told him "OK, let me treat you to something from the cafeteria" and I walked inside, him following me. The lady behind the counter started yelling "Oh, hell no, get out of here, you!" and I realised she was talking to him. I was baffled and asked "why?" after which she asked me if he is with me, I said "yes" and she muttered "well, OK, then". This 10 year old boy, that was cocky as a 15 year old a minute ago, became shy as a 5 year old. I asked him if he prefers Fanta or Coca-Cola, Bounty or Twix etc. and he just kept saying "I don't know" with his head down. I got some drinks and candy-bars for him and he said "thank you", while still keeping his head down. I am not sure what went through his head, whether it was the first time he experienced such things, but to be honest I replayed this event in my head and I am angry at myself for not doing 2 things - scolding the lady at the counter and trying to talk to the kid afterwards (altough I still don't know what I am suppossed to say in this case). If the lady (~50 years old) behind the counter was a man my age I would probably have told him to go f&ck himself...but yeah, I think about that sometimes. The kid probably thinks about it more. He should be 14-15 years old now, probably angry at the world around him. The moral of the story is - it's not important whether the chicken or the egg came first (people in the Balkans know which debate I am refering to), it's important to think about solutions and treat people the same way you want to be treated.
8 days ago
Although there are problems in the Gypsy community in Bulgaria (poverty, theft, prostitution, etc.) here is an interesting story - I was smoking with a co-worker of mine outside my office 4-5 years ago. A little gypsy kid, about 10 years old, was ridding a (non-electric) scooter nearby. I told him that he won't be able to jump over a curb nearby and this 10 year old became cocky as a 15 year old ("Who...me?! Ofcourse I can do it!" and the like). He gained speed and just barely jumped over the curb with his scooter and I told him "OK, let me treat you to something from the cafeteria" and I walked inside, him following me. The lady behind the counter started yelling "Oh, hell no, get out of here, you!" and I realised she was talking to him. I was baffled and asked "why?" after which she asked me if he is with me, I said "yes" and she muttered "well, OK, then". This 10 year old boy, that was cocky as a 15 year old a minute ago, became shy as a 5 year old. I asked him if he prefers Fanta or Coca-Cola, Bounty or Twix etc. and he just kept saying "I don't know" with his head down. I got some drinks and candy-bars for him and he said "thank you", while still keeping his head down. I am not sure what went through his head, whether it was the first time he experienced such things, but to be honest I replayed this event in my head and I am angry at myself for not doing 2 things - scolding the lady at the counter and trying to talk to the kid afterwards (altough I still don't know what I am suppossed to say in this case). If the lady (~50 years old) behind the counter was a man my age I would probably have told him to go f&ck himself...but yeah, I think about that sometimes. The kid probably thinks about it more. He should be 14-15 years old now, probably angry at the world around him. The moral of the story is - it's not important whether the chicken or the egg came first (people in the Balkans know which debate I am refering to), it's important to think about solutions and treat people the same way you want to be treated.
@thehun1234
10 days ago
In the 60s I had a gypsy classmate at the university in Budapest. He came from the eastern part of Hungary, near the Soviet (today Ukrainian) border. He said that his biggest problems were not with Hungarians but with other gypsies. Every time he visited his parents in their village during holidays other gypsies beat him up because "he wanted to be white". One year he ended up in hospital for several weeks because of this beating. Of course, no witnesses were prepared to testify. After that, he never returned to his village. He worked real hard and managed to graduate.
10 days ago
In the 60s I had a gypsy classmate at the university in Budapest. He came from the eastern part of Hungary, near the Soviet (today Ukrainian) border. He said that his biggest problems were not with Hungarians but with other gypsies. Every time he visited his parents in their village during holidays other gypsies beat him up because "he wanted to be white". One year he ended up in hospital for several weeks because of this beating. Of course, no witnesses were prepared to testify. After that, he never returned to his village. He worked real hard and managed to graduate.
@juniorjames7076
9 days ago (edited)
When I lived and worked in Turkey teaching English I had two Turkish friends who (secretly) told me about thier Gypsy ancestry. One told me she was Bulgarian/Turkish/Gypsy because her grandparents were kicked out of Bulgaria in the early 1980s when Bulgaria was kicking out Muslims. She said her ancestral family were Gypsies in Bulgaria who converted to Islam in the 18th century, and became middle class working for Ottoman administrators until the World War 1. She could speak Turkish, Bulgarian, English, understood Kurdish, some Farsi and some Arabic. She had extended family members living in Bulgaria, Lebanon, Armenia, Germany and Turkey.
9 days ago (edited)
When I lived and worked in Turkey teaching English I had two Turkish friends who (secretly) told me about thier Gypsy ancestry. One told me she was Bulgarian/Turkish/Gypsy because her grandparents were kicked out of Bulgaria in the early 1980s when Bulgaria was kicking out Muslims. She said her ancestral family were Gypsies in Bulgaria who converted to Islam in the 18th century, and became middle class working for Ottoman administrators until the World War 1. She could speak Turkish, Bulgarian, English, understood Kurdish, some Farsi and some Arabic. She had extended family members living in Bulgaria, Lebanon, Armenia, Germany and Turkey.
@mrico523
9 days ago (edited)
Gypsies fled the Balkans to Transylvania & Hungary in multiple waves. They largely lived free as roaming traders, craftsmen and vagrants until empress Maria Theresa tried to forcibly settle them, at which point they became serfs. This was generally percieved as social progress at the time, but it arguably did little to improve their lives. It was better than being a slave in Wallachia or Moldova, but integration into existing communities didn't really work and it just added resentment on top of prejudice. Fun fact: lots of gypsies around Brasov speak Hungarian as a primary language but are still Orthodox - a testament to the A-H school system that semi-successfully integrated them, and a clear sign that the largely Protestant communities is the area never really accepted them. Also, you left out a MAJOR European issue: they were forcibly sterilized in Sweden as late as the early '70s.
9 days ago (edited)
Gypsies fled the Balkans to Transylvania & Hungary in multiple waves. They largely lived free as roaming traders, craftsmen and vagrants until empress Maria Theresa tried to forcibly settle them, at which point they became serfs. This was generally percieved as social progress at the time, but it arguably did little to improve their lives. It was better than being a slave in Wallachia or Moldova, but integration into existing communities didn't really work and it just added resentment on top of prejudice. Fun fact: lots of gypsies around Brasov speak Hungarian as a primary language but are still Orthodox - a testament to the A-H school system that semi-successfully integrated them, and a clear sign that the largely Protestant communities is the area never really accepted them. Also, you left out a MAJOR European issue: they were forcibly sterilized in Sweden as late as the early '70s.
@carloshache
9 days ago (edited)
According to newer research, the reasons the Roma left India seems to be more complicated than them just being refugees from the war (which might've played a part in some way still). There seems to have been a few waves of immigration from the sub-continent during a much longer period than initially believed. The Roma are one of several groups that left.
These migrations seems to have alot to do with the Indian caste system. In this system you are born to do a certain job and you are NOT allowed to quit it (by religious decree). So when economic demand for your services dries up, you basically have to starve or leave the country. Many caste groups had became quite economically niche by the Medieval period - there were at some areas a local "drum player caste" which didn't turn out to be economically feasible. And this was the case for many other castes which over time devolved into poverty and outsider status.
And this might be an explanation for why some of these groups departed as a whole group. They were looking for new jobs! The Roma left, but still behaved like an Indian caste group, and kept it to themselves. You can't marry outside the group or have much contact with outsiders except work and trade.
Another group that migrated is the diverse Dom people which is a similar ethnic group to the Roma, but they migrated much earlier than the Roma and settled in the Middle East. The Dom all clearly come from an ancient Indian caste of musicians - the Dom caste. In central Europe you have the Sinti which are very similar to Roma but are still considered to be a separate group and probably have another geographical origin (in Sindh, present day Pakistan, and not Punjab).
9 days ago (edited)
According to newer research, the reasons the Roma left India seems to be more complicated than them just being refugees from the war (which might've played a part in some way still). There seems to have been a few waves of immigration from the sub-continent during a much longer period than initially believed. The Roma are one of several groups that left.
These migrations seems to have alot to do with the Indian caste system. In this system you are born to do a certain job and you are NOT allowed to quit it (by religious decree). So when economic demand for your services dries up, you basically have to starve or leave the country. Many caste groups had became quite economically niche by the Medieval period - there were at some areas a local "drum player caste" which didn't turn out to be economically feasible. And this was the case for many other castes which over time devolved into poverty and outsider status.
And this might be an explanation for why some of these groups departed as a whole group. They were looking for new jobs! The Roma left, but still behaved like an Indian caste group, and kept it to themselves. You can't marry outside the group or have much contact with outsiders except work and trade.
Another group that migrated is the diverse Dom people which is a similar ethnic group to the Roma, but they migrated much earlier than the Roma and settled in the Middle East. The Dom all clearly come from an ancient Indian caste of musicians - the Dom caste. In central Europe you have the Sinti which are very similar to Roma but are still considered to be a separate group and probably have another geographical origin (in Sindh, present day Pakistan, and not Punjab).
@riotctrl9703
9 days ago
I remember in secondary school there was a Romanian Gypsy in our class and we used to just give this guy hell for no reason other than he was a gypsy and was a bit strange to our western worldview. He left school after three years and it took me three more years after that to realise the horrible bullying we had done to the guy. I remember he said, after we called him a gypsy in a slur kind of a way, that he was proud to be a gypsy and we all laughed but truly he was dead right in being proud.
Maybe a year after realising I had done terrible wrong by him I ran into him just by chance and he recognised me. The first few things I said to him was that I was sorry for what we did and this guy just would not allow me to say sorry he was like “ahhh it’s okay bro stop it’s alright don’t be sorry” and it really changed my entire perspective of himself and Romani people as a whole. He was a normal guy like us and we tortured him for it. I’ll never forget him. His name was Petre or something similar but we all called him Peter because we were westoids.
9 days ago
I remember in secondary school there was a Romanian Gypsy in our class and we used to just give this guy hell for no reason other than he was a gypsy and was a bit strange to our western worldview. He left school after three years and it took me three more years after that to realise the horrible bullying we had done to the guy. I remember he said, after we called him a gypsy in a slur kind of a way, that he was proud to be a gypsy and we all laughed but truly he was dead right in being proud.
Maybe a year after realising I had done terrible wrong by him I ran into him just by chance and he recognised me. The first few things I said to him was that I was sorry for what we did and this guy just would not allow me to say sorry he was like “ahhh it’s okay bro stop it’s alright don’t be sorry” and it really changed my entire perspective of himself and Romani people as a whole. He was a normal guy like us and we tortured him for it. I’ll never forget him. His name was Petre or something similar but we all called him Peter because we were westoids.
@weeboslav
10 days ago (edited)
Funniest(and saddest) part is that politicians use Romani people as cheep voters in Serbia and Montenegro. In Serbia,few years ago,Romani managed to get Hungarian party a lot of seats in a place where Hungarians make less than ~3% of population due to wrong advertisement. In Montenegro,politicians buy Romani votes for 20 euros while Romani themselfs live in slums. Few days ago,a slum in Bar(coastal city in Montenegro)burned down,killing 4 people(2 or 3 were underage). There was also Karton City(cardboard city)in Belgrade that was,as it names implies,made out of cardboard and nearly 1000 people lived there.
10 days ago (edited)
Funniest(and saddest) part is that politicians use Romani people as cheep voters in Serbia and Montenegro. In Serbia,few years ago,Romani managed to get Hungarian party a lot of seats in a place where Hungarians make less than ~3% of population due to wrong advertisement. In Montenegro,politicians buy Romani votes for 20 euros while Romani themselfs live in slums. Few days ago,a slum in Bar(coastal city in Montenegro)burned down,killing 4 people(2 or 3 were underage). There was also Karton City(cardboard city)in Belgrade that was,as it names implies,made out of cardboard and nearly 1000 people lived there.
@junimeme5626
9 days ago (edited)
Just to add, as a Romanian: the Gypsy culture has a deep understandable embedded resistance to integration. The programs that aim at integrating them often receive backlash and straight up rejection by many Gypsy communities. This includes housing and schooling. This has been true even during the communist years when they would be given free apartments but chose to live outside of them in tents.
While social programs have been lacking in many ways during the decades, I wanted to point out that a will for integration by them must indisputably exist from within, otherwise the programs simply won't work. You can throw more programs and funds at this issue, but a reform from within would be much smarter. Selling your children or throwing them out on the streets to beg instead of accepting schooling will never be acceptable in any western society. If you'll counter this by saying they don't do it because of racism, I can show you many examples where the kids that went through school grew up into very successful adults. Heck, my dear desk mate from high school was one, and he has a wonderful IT career now. But at the same time there are much more examples of kids being taken out of school by their families for no good reason (except things like "f that, you'll go west and steal and buy yourself a Mercedes in a few months").
You can understand their cynical view given their history, but at some point you must accept the goods that a reformed society provides you in the place that you want to attempt to settle.
9 days ago (edited)
Just to add, as a Romanian: the Gypsy culture has a deep understandable embedded resistance to integration. The programs that aim at integrating them often receive backlash and straight up rejection by many Gypsy communities. This includes housing and schooling. This has been true even during the communist years when they would be given free apartments but chose to live outside of them in tents.
While social programs have been lacking in many ways during the decades, I wanted to point out that a will for integration by them must indisputably exist from within, otherwise the programs simply won't work. You can throw more programs and funds at this issue, but a reform from within would be much smarter. Selling your children or throwing them out on the streets to beg instead of accepting schooling will never be acceptable in any western society. If you'll counter this by saying they don't do it because of racism, I can show you many examples where the kids that went through school grew up into very successful adults. Heck, my dear desk mate from high school was one, and he has a wonderful IT career now. But at the same time there are much more examples of kids being taken out of school by their families for no good reason (except things like "f that, you'll go west and steal and buy yourself a Mercedes in a few months").
You can understand their cynical view given their history, but at some point you must accept the goods that a reformed society provides you in the place that you want to attempt to settle.
@mr.pearly7478
10 days ago (edited)
As someone studying Tudor England, I must clarify that Gypsies were considered "vagrants" in Tudor England, which at the time was a big social issue for the country. Vagrants were unemployed people wandering the country for jobs, believed to be the cause of much of the crime and evil in the country. Initially gypsies were tolerated (despite having laws passed against them to leave or assimilate into English society) and were successful in jobs in entertainment, music, and arts. However, once the issue of vagrancy was seen as a national threat, gypsies were treated with much more fear and suspicion, and there was a belief that English born gypsies were simply pretending to be gypsies to avoid being considered a vagrant. The reason they were branded with a V and eventually put into slavery was because they were later seen as vagrants, wandering the country for work and crime, not just because they were gypsies.
10 days ago (edited)
As someone studying Tudor England, I must clarify that Gypsies were considered "vagrants" in Tudor England, which at the time was a big social issue for the country. Vagrants were unemployed people wandering the country for jobs, believed to be the cause of much of the crime and evil in the country. Initially gypsies were tolerated (despite having laws passed against them to leave or assimilate into English society) and were successful in jobs in entertainment, music, and arts. However, once the issue of vagrancy was seen as a national threat, gypsies were treated with much more fear and suspicion, and there was a belief that English born gypsies were simply pretending to be gypsies to avoid being considered a vagrant. The reason they were branded with a V and eventually put into slavery was because they were later seen as vagrants, wandering the country for work and crime, not just because they were gypsies.
@oskar6607
10 days ago
J, this was probably your Magnus opus - well done! Here in Sweden 🇸🇪 there’s three kinds of gypsies: (1) old Swedish gypsy families who have probably been around since the 1800 or early 1900s; (2) Finnish gypsies who came here from Finland in the 1950/60s and (3) Romanian Gypsies who came here in the past ten years. The first are a mix of well integrated and criminals, the second are quite conspicuous due to distinct dress while the third are mainly begging outside grocery stores. To be honest, neither are generally seen as productive members of society.
There’s also a kind of Swedish travelers who are not an ethnic group but some kind of old social class. Don’t think they have anything to do with Roma.
10 days ago
J, this was probably your Magnus opus - well done! Here in Sweden 🇸🇪 there’s three kinds of gypsies: (1) old Swedish gypsy families who have probably been around since the 1800 or early 1900s; (2) Finnish gypsies who came here from Finland in the 1950/60s and (3) Romanian Gypsies who came here in the past ten years. The first are a mix of well integrated and criminals, the second are quite conspicuous due to distinct dress while the third are mainly begging outside grocery stores. To be honest, neither are generally seen as productive members of society.
There’s also a kind of Swedish travelers who are not an ethnic group but some kind of old social class. Don’t think they have anything to do with Roma.
@thetechguychannel
9 days ago
The Greek "Atsigani" (untouchable) may have been an exonym born out of dialogue with the gypsies about their provenance. They were people of the Dalit caste in India for the most part, which would translate as "untouchable" there as well.
It's why some minor movements to "return to the homeland" were met with absolute disdain by Indians themselves, sometimes with pretty terrible threats. Let's just say their former cohabitants don't have a very high opinion of them, either.
9 days ago
The Greek "Atsigani" (untouchable) may have been an exonym born out of dialogue with the gypsies about their provenance. They were people of the Dalit caste in India for the most part, which would translate as "untouchable" there as well.
It's why some minor movements to "return to the homeland" were met with absolute disdain by Indians themselves, sometimes with pretty terrible threats. Let's just say their former cohabitants don't have a very high opinion of them, either.
@stranger9131
10 days ago (edited)
Funny how the Gypsies are almost never mentioned when talking about the Holocaust, in western countries. I have studied both in the USA and The Netherlands, at prestigious universities, and the Holocaust was brought up quite frequently (especially in the US) but the killing of the gypsies was straight up denied every time. For them, only the Jews died, and when I pointed out the it wasn't true, I was threatened by my professors. I grew up in Romania, surrounded by gypsies, in a poor neighborhood. They were, and will always be my friends, and seeing their history being erased by a specific group of people that I won't name, is frustrating as fuck.
Later edit: Even though half of you say that you learned about the Gypsy’s history with the Holocaust, most of you also agree that this history was barely mentioned, while the major focus was on the Jews. That’s the idea! It’s easy to “forget” about these people when that main focus is on the Jews. Agree with me or not, but most teachers choose to only speak about the sufferings of the Jews. At the end of the day, the Gypsy’s never use the Holocaust as an excuse to commit genocide…
10 days ago (edited)
Funny how the Gypsies are almost never mentioned when talking about the Holocaust, in western countries. I have studied both in the USA and The Netherlands, at prestigious universities, and the Holocaust was brought up quite frequently (especially in the US) but the killing of the gypsies was straight up denied every time. For them, only the Jews died, and when I pointed out the it wasn't true, I was threatened by my professors. I grew up in Romania, surrounded by gypsies, in a poor neighborhood. They were, and will always be my friends, and seeing their history being erased by a specific group of people that I won't name, is frustrating as fuck.
Later edit: Even though half of you say that you learned about the Gypsy’s history with the Holocaust, most of you also agree that this history was barely mentioned, while the major focus was on the Jews. That’s the idea! It’s easy to “forget” about these people when that main focus is on the Jews. Agree with me or not, but most teachers choose to only speak about the sufferings of the Jews. At the end of the day, the Gypsy’s never use the Holocaust as an excuse to commit genocide…
@raptormaitre
10 days ago
Wow, this was very well made and very in depth, and as an Indian, I'd add something that i have observed here. There are still nomadic people around the northern states, called Banjaras, and eastern parts called Bede people who occupy a similar demographic in India. They are heavily persecuted against, and so they adopt very similar traits like the Roma. Though in last 50 years there have been active efforts to recognise their culture and integrate them in society, the prejudice in peoples mind remains a big obstacle. They are a hot tourist attraction though, since they got government recognition and support and they are actually pulling in some decent money from tourism in a legitimate way.
10 days ago
Wow, this was very well made and very in depth, and as an Indian, I'd add something that i have observed here. There are still nomadic people around the northern states, called Banjaras, and eastern parts called Bede people who occupy a similar demographic in India. They are heavily persecuted against, and so they adopt very similar traits like the Roma. Though in last 50 years there have been active efforts to recognise their culture and integrate them in society, the prejudice in peoples mind remains a big obstacle. They are a hot tourist attraction though, since they got government recognition and support and they are actually pulling in some decent money from tourism in a legitimate way.
@dhiminusgan
10 days ago (edited)
As someone who speaks Spanish, I knew they were mistakenly thought to originate from Egypt because of “gitano”, but knew they originated from India because I’m also a geography nerd & watch & seen videos of them doing DNA ancestry tests that show their origins. BUT I had no idea they were enslaved. SMH it makes sense now why they’re still discriminated against
10 days ago (edited)
As someone who speaks Spanish, I knew they were mistakenly thought to originate from Egypt because of “gitano”, but knew they originated from India because I’m also a geography nerd & watch & seen videos of them doing DNA ancestry tests that show their origins. BUT I had no idea they were enslaved. SMH it makes sense now why they’re still discriminated against
@carloshache
9 days ago (edited)
You forgot to mention that like many outcast peoples, many Roma are excellent musicians. This is something that the Roma have alot in common with the other former slaves such as African Americans. A majority of the hardest Balkan Brass bands are Roma. And Roma music was also very important in the musical history of many countries and especially Romania and Hungary, and Roma influences feature in both popular folk music and classical music. In this way, Roma culture is synomynous with Balkan culture.
Also then in Spain there's the whole Flamenco business with its many amazing musicians such as Camarón De La Isla and "La Singla" and many others. Straight up fire.
9 days ago (edited)
You forgot to mention that like many outcast peoples, many Roma are excellent musicians. This is something that the Roma have alot in common with the other former slaves such as African Americans. A majority of the hardest Balkan Brass bands are Roma. And Roma music was also very important in the musical history of many countries and especially Romania and Hungary, and Roma influences feature in both popular folk music and classical music. In this way, Roma culture is synomynous with Balkan culture.
Also then in Spain there's the whole Flamenco business with its many amazing musicians such as Camarón De La Isla and "La Singla" and many others. Straight up fire.
@thrax515
10 days ago
Nobody will deny the enslavement of gypsies in the romanian principalities but saying they "PROSPERED" from the slave labour is straight up wrong. The lands under direct ottoman control were better economically with less slave labour, romanian principalities were the poorest of all the lands in the european part of the ottoman empire, dont make it sound we were making bank like the confederacy did. You could say the nobility of these prinicipalities was making some profit but as a whole they poorer than serbia or bulgaria.
10 days ago
Nobody will deny the enslavement of gypsies in the romanian principalities but saying they "PROSPERED" from the slave labour is straight up wrong. The lands under direct ottoman control were better economically with less slave labour, romanian principalities were the poorest of all the lands in the european part of the ottoman empire, dont make it sound we were making bank like the confederacy did. You could say the nobility of these prinicipalities was making some profit but as a whole they poorer than serbia or bulgaria.
@slxd100
6 days ago
@antoniudraculea this channel is run by some lefti serbian, what do you expect? he is also good friends with this t4rd from georgia, always larping about sjw stuff and so on and so forth, he also conviently ignored why gypsies were specifically targeted the way they were. other nomadic groups, even moral enemies like the huns and avars didn't meet such a faith, why? because they actually contributed to the places they settled in and adjusted.
6 days ago
@antoniudraculea this channel is run by some lefti serbian, what do you expect? he is also good friends with this t4rd from georgia, always larping about sjw stuff and so on and so forth, he also conviently ignored why gypsies were specifically targeted the way they were. other nomadic groups, even moral enemies like the huns and avars didn't meet such a faith, why? because they actually contributed to the places they settled in and adjusted.
@dragoncam13
6 days ago
@slxd100 also even the tatars were integrated well into lithuania and Poland despite being nomads
@slxd100
6 days ago
@dragoncam13 exactly! and some of these tatars were connected to the past huns and mongols, mortal enemies of any european countries they've raided/invaded, yet even those were spared in the end (at least some were spared). obviously, the history of the gypsies is unfortunate, specifically due to the impact the ottomans had on the whole thing, but it is what it is. no excuses when moving forward. no one had it easy at some point in time
@pasodmater
10 days ago
There's a gypsy 'neighborhood' near where I went to elementary school. We had problems with them almost every week, be it fights, theft, or general disruptiveness. I had an uncle and an older brother called on me by those losers after they lost fights, both in garbage-men outfits. During my 6th year, I had 3 of them in my class, a guy who failed 1 year, a girl who failed 2, and a girl who was there once a month just because the law said she had to while other times she was a full-time prostitute.
In high-shool I got to know a decent gypsy for the first time, but he wasn't local and his parents moved here for a job so he was a normal guy. My uncle saw them steal old iron they turned in during the day for recycling, and then turn it back in the next day. You just can't live with them near you with any ease.
10 days ago
There's a gypsy 'neighborhood' near where I went to elementary school. We had problems with them almost every week, be it fights, theft, or general disruptiveness. I had an uncle and an older brother called on me by those losers after they lost fights, both in garbage-men outfits. During my 6th year, I had 3 of them in my class, a guy who failed 1 year, a girl who failed 2, and a girl who was there once a month just because the law said she had to while other times she was a full-time prostitute.
In high-shool I got to know a decent gypsy for the first time, but he wasn't local and his parents moved here for a job so he was a normal guy. My uncle saw them steal old iron they turned in during the day for recycling, and then turn it back in the next day. You just can't live with them near you with any ease.