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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 8, 2007 1:42:41 GMT -5
interesting read the discussion at this link Name: Albanian relations with other indoeuropean languageswww.antimoon.com/forum/t2885-0.htmquote of interest from there " Another author that i can mention is Aristides Colia, which belonged to the Greek Albanian community (Arvanite). He was not a professional, but apparently, as I do, he liked etymology, history etc. In my opinion, even though he was a bit scarce as a historian (he was affected by nationalism), he did a very good job linking modern Albanian with Homeric Greek (preclassic). He stated that comparatively Albanian inherited some words from Homeric Greek that do not exist in modern Greek. I don't know if his opera ( Albanians and the origin of the Greeks) was translated in English, because he was a bit opprimed by the official Greek institutions. " Any opinions on Colia and his ideas?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 8, 2007 1:57:02 GMT -5
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 8, 2007 2:13:38 GMT -5
Also let me place my logical deduction of what is being said here (after filtering all the obvious propaganda).
Albanian as an ethnic/linguistic identity is of course a recent creation regarding the term Albanian per say. Therefore anything older then past 1000 years can not be possibly termed as Albanian in any shape or form as such term is understood today.
On the other hand, stating that Homeric Greek is in some forms akin to some of the words found in modern Albanian possibly implies one of two things
A) that either modern Albanian is partly derived from language spoken in Hellenistic southern Illyria. Language which would have been akin to Homeric like Greek and Phrygian. Strabo compares them in language and culture to Dorian Greek regions of Macedonia and Epirus. Regions which were speaking archaic Homeric like Greek which would have been practically unintelligible to more modern speech of Athens for example.
B) or (which appears to be the case by initial statements) that Albanian is descended from such speech (focus Hellenistic southern Illyria). This would mean that Albanian is a partial descendant of archaic Homeric like Hellenic language which would of course prove the link with local southern Illyrians on some level at least.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Dec 8, 2007 11:33:25 GMT -5
I think we must also not forget the character of the Homeric Epos by that time! People learned it by hart and sung it...So, the words' similarity might have another explanation: (possibility nr. 3) - travelling in different places, there were some words added in there either Albanian, (old) or other dialects (Dorians, Thracians, Macedonians. etc).
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Dec 8, 2007 13:05:10 GMT -5
I have the book which you speak of. The connection is indeed interesting and serves to confirm the autochtony of our people.
Aristidh Kola was a good man. He was a lawyer by profession, yet he dedicated his life to historical and linguistic studies, putting to light the history and past of his kin, the Arvanites. He tried hard to fight the racism towards Albanians and pointed out the mistake in supporting Milosevic 's treatment of Kosovar Albanians.
Kola, with his argumentation, intends to proove that Greek racism towards Albanians is futile and erroneous, because the Albanians are, to him, the purest descendants of ancient Hellenes. To make his case he uses himself of linguistic connections between Albanian and ancient Greek, as well as a cultural comparison where he argues that the Hellenic spirit, which he narrows down to characteristics/virtues such as competetiveness, hospitality, spontaneity, secularism, bravery, heroism and so forth (which he puts in contrast to what he calls Hebrew-Christian mentality of being subserviant, turning the other cheek, resorting to intrigues and conspiracies instead of confrontation and raw strength), is best preserved among the Albanians, to whom he also counts the Arvanites.
Of course, I do not agree with these theories. There's nothing to support a common linguistic origin of Albanian & Greek, unless we go back to proto-Indoeuropean, in which case all languages of the IE family are related (one can also add the fact that Kola treats the Indoeuropean hypothesis as a myth). But his innovative style does shed a different light to the problematic aspects of our history. And his work contain valuable quotes and references to recent history that debunk alot of myths connotated with the Greek Revolution and the whole klepht movement.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Dec 8, 2007 13:27:40 GMT -5
Wrong. The shape which Albanian has today, such as the Geg/Tosk division, the incorporation of certain Slavisms of Old Slavonic and so forth, suggest it was taken before the date set by you. In either case, Albanian as a language comprises its own separate branch. It is as logical to call the language our ancestors spoke as "ancient Albanian" as it is to speak of classical Greek as "ancient Greek" in contrast to modern Greek. If our language is "recent", it would not compose its own branch within the IE linguistic family tree. but rather descend from an earlier IE language, as is the case with French which comes from Latin etc.
There's not any support in the scientific world concerning Illyrian being related to Greek. No doubt there was Greek influence -- Albanian contains classical Greek loan words, confirming such interaction (since such words couldn't have been incorporated later on). But even ancient Greeks treated the Illyrians as a foreign ethnic body that spoke an unintelligible language. The Hellenic colonies of Dyrrachium and elsewhere weren't 'Illyrian' other than geographically.
Descended from Illyrian, yes. From Greek? No. In my opinion, what the connection between Albanian and Homeric Greek prooves definetely is our presence in the Balkans in old times. The absence of some of these words in modern Greek suggests we must've borrowed them from the old Greeks, since the 'new' Greeks, their descendants, sometimes during the corse of history lost those words. The very first word in the Iliad, mênin, is preserved by Albanian (mëni in Geg, mëri in Tosk, meaning anger, wrath, annoyance).
Such interaction doesn't mean our language 'partially' descends from Greek (or vice-versa), but rather that there was interaction between our people, which leads to loan words, which doesn't automatically mean we borrowed from the Greek; it could have gone the other way around, as it is known that the Dorians came from the north (and there they might very well have loaned some Illyrian words). Or it might have gone as Teuta mentioned. The translation of songs isn't empirically absent. For instance, it is known that the famous "Bosniak" rapsod Sulejman Ugljanin, with roots in Kosova (the village of Uglar, Rugovë) sang both in Albanian and Bosniak. The epic songs and tales of Mujo and Halil exists in both cultures, speaking of the relativity of such stories.
Thirdly, there's also the aspect of Indoeuropean roots. While some of these words definetely point out a distinctively Albanian-Greek interaction, other words may very well have Indoeuropean roots, and are consequently neither originally Albanian specifically or Greek. One example is the Albanian word for thought, which is mend -- this word also exists, with the same meaning, in Homeric Greek as mêtis, or mêntis. But you also have the English mind. And the Swedish word for memory is minne.
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 8, 2007 16:48:41 GMT -5
Im taking ancient Attic Greek right now(the kind spoken by Classical 5th century Athens) and I can say that there are numerous words that are very similar. Many of these constructions seem to be IE constructions though. The people who became the Albanian people and the Greeks have been around each other for thousands of years and have inherited similar words. They can also be words that were IE and thus shared between the two people similarly.
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Post by albquietman on Dec 15, 2007 3:23:00 GMT -5
My understanding, according to as we know at least, the word "mend" has derived from the italian, or latin "mente", which has the same meaning in albanian. I don't know if Homer got it from latins or from us, and who was the first to use this word, but what do I know is that nations that were smart enough to get themselves out of the stupid middle age darkness faster than the others, could claim every single achievements that was done by the others...well, I guess that's human nature even today...no wonder we later came up with the patent thingy... My point is...don't blame the greeks if they borrowed our words...we weren't smart enough to get a patent for our inventions...if there was any, anyway... My second point is, how about we as a nation start patenting our invention through developing our country. History has shown that practically people don't care what you've done in the past, but what are you doing now...USA has no ancient history but it's the world superpower...
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Dec 15, 2007 17:32:21 GMT -5
Good point AlbQ... and dont be a stranger.
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Post by albquietman on Dec 16, 2007 0:33:46 GMT -5
How you are doing Canaris? Yes, I have been busy lately. I had to take an exam (Network+) and I've been studying all this time. I took it yesterday and passed . I see that the new designed forum is getting better, and that's good news ...
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Dec 16, 2007 0:57:49 GMT -5
How you are doing Canaris? Yes, I have been busy lately. I had to take an exam (Network+) and I've been studying all this time. I took it yesterday and passed . I see that the new designed forum is getting better, and that's good news ... Congrats..... glad to see you here again.
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 16, 2007 1:09:07 GMT -5
Its Indo-European probably. I know of the Homeric "Mentor", I dont know if it still exists, but the idea is similar to Latin, inwhich "mind" is "mens". In Alb we have "mend"
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Dec 26, 2007 16:43:34 GMT -5
Diqka ma shume o njerz!!!
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Post by absoluteillyrian on Dec 26, 2007 18:31:24 GMT -5
we made the greeks create themselfes...
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viktor1
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Post by viktor1 on Dec 27, 2007 4:04:15 GMT -5
Even the name "Homeros" Is Albanian
Original name
Omiros = O mir osht = So wonderful
Greeks translate
Omeros = In their language doesn't mean nothing
Nowdays
Homeros = Have added only "h" only because it's easer to say
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Dec 27, 2007 6:28:06 GMT -5
It means nothing..where do you get that from your granddaddy? It means 'witness".
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 27, 2007 12:01:30 GMT -5
like I have said many times before ...when its said its "Latin" don't forget the Pelasgian/Etruscan connection ...
*think out of the box for a minute
...not Latin in our Albanian ,but Alb floating in Latin bcs of the pelasga/etruscan connection
note: the latin/alb thing can be also refuted with the Illyrians in the Roman empire thing as well ...but it goes way farther than just that .
*another think out of the box :
when you hear of IE in Illyrian-Albanian language ... instead ,think of it as "the Pelasgian in IE "
in other words...think of the Pelasgian lingo and religion/culture going outward and then the IE peoples coming into our balkania with Pelasgo words/religion/culture .....and dont forget the geographic location of main worship center Dodona .
see ....this is the way to think of it ...and I believe our Aristidh Kola was on this in a bigger way ....
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Post by albquietman on Dec 27, 2007 13:30:17 GMT -5
It means nothing..where do you get that from your granddaddy? It means 'witness". Omiros(Homer) means hostage in greek language, not witness...
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