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Post by benkovski on May 27, 2008 21:20:52 GMT -5
Take a look at these: The host journalist conducts inverviews with Aegean Macedonians, the name of the interviewed person is displayed. Also, notice the name of the journalist himself. Tell me how many Macedonians do you see with the name suffix of ski?
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Post by terroreign on May 27, 2008 21:46:06 GMT -5
Looks like their last names were changed during all of the Greek Hysteria
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Post by benkovski on May 28, 2008 11:35:12 GMT -5
Actually, the Greeks didn’t change their last names.. they gave them entirely new ones, full names. Their Greek names are and were to be used for public affairs, and Aegean Macedonians are identified with their Greek names in their documentations. Their Macedonian, or rather Bulgarian names are usually just known and used amongst one another. Furthermore, the ski suffix is mostly present in Vardar Macedonia as it was a creation of the Yugoslav government. Take a look at this: www.biserbalkanski.com/mb/message_details.aspx?mid=17613
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Post by pagane on May 28, 2008 15:40:29 GMT -5
Toro is a moron. He knows nothing, just annoys people. For God's sake, he even doesn't know what nationality he is...
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Post by terroreign on May 28, 2008 18:33:57 GMT -5
Whoa pagan watch out with those personal attacks.....
And since when did I start letting you speak for me? Nationality, what? Pagan maybe you should take a trip back to tartarstan, clear your head a little.
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Post by benkovski on May 28, 2008 21:53:10 GMT -5
Terroreign, my friend, you need to get some of your facts straight. The term Tatar or Tartar refers to all peoples who were subjected by the Mongols at one point or another. It's not an ethnic or racial designation. This is an artificial term in order to make it easier for historians to designate a particular group of people during a particular time period. In the same way, the term barbarian doesn’t exactly mean savage. It took on that meaning recently. The Romans used the term ‘barbarians’ to designate all peoples who were not Christians. Another interesting fact that I’m sure you are unaware of is that the republic of Tatarstan was known as Bulgaristan until the early 20th c. Seems you are very confused about history yet you pretend to discuss it.
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Post by terroreign on May 28, 2008 22:02:29 GMT -5
^Obviously you dont know what you're talking about
Tatar is a ethnic term for the Volga Tatars(From Tatarstan) and Crimean Tatars. They descend from around the Gobi Desert.
Btw the whole macedonian thing I'm just playing with to piss off you bulgar chauvinists...
So loosen up a little.
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Post by benkovski on May 28, 2008 22:14:46 GMT -5
The Russian federation uses this term to designate descendants of Volga Bulgarians, but it doesn't use it correctly. And, due to that a lot of people out there are misinterpreting its meaning.
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Post by terroreign on May 28, 2008 22:30:43 GMT -5
^Historians and Tatars themselves use this term in that way, and although there used to be some ambiguity before or other meanings, today it is mostly known in this way. Please, look for yourself: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars
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Post by benkovski on May 28, 2008 22:39:13 GMT -5
As your quote states, the remnants of the original Mongol-Tatars were assimilated by meaning that they made a contribution to the ethnic makeup of Volga Bulgars, but were in no way the dominant factor. If they were, the Volga Bulgars would have been assimilated into the Mongol-Tatars. Anyway, this is why it is a misinterpreted term and is not used correctly.
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Post by terroreign on May 28, 2008 22:51:49 GMT -5
But the volga bulgars DID assimilate into the Mongol-Tatars, hence today they call themselves tatars and speak a turkic language like their ancestors.
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Post by depletedreasons on May 29, 2008 0:26:05 GMT -5
Crimean Tatars are the descendants of mainly the Kipchak (Cuman) and Khazars, but a bit of Volga Bolgars and Nogay impact also exists.
The descendants of the Turkic Volga Bolgars are mainly the Kazan Tatars, and the Chuvash living in the Volga basin. Karachay, Balkar, and Kumyk are the descendants of the Volga Bolgars in Caucasus.
So, Terroreign is pretty much accurate.
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Post by terroreign on May 29, 2008 1:28:31 GMT -5
^Thank you spirit of tartary!
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 29, 2008 6:19:04 GMT -5
"Crimean Tatars are the descendants of mainly the Kipchak (Cuman) and Khazars, but a bit of Volga Bolgars and Nogay impact also exists."
Your a man of Turkic knowledge, could you tell us more about the cumani people. Since this is the Vardar forum, there is talk that the Vardar city of Kumanovo could have been named after these people (Cumans).
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Post by depletedreasons on May 29, 2008 7:45:54 GMT -5
Your a man of Turkic knowledge, could you tell us more about the cumani people. Since this is the Vardar forum, there is talk that the Vardar city of Kumanovo could have been named after these people (Cumans). Kumanova is one of the cities that the Cumans took shelter after having defeated by the Mongol forces. Some other Cumans also took shelter in Hungaria, and settled in lands that are still known as "Cumania" today. Cumans or Kumans (both: k´mänz) (KEY) , nomadic East Turkic people, identified with the Kipchaks (or the western branch of the Kipchaks) and known in Russian as Polovtsi. Coming from NW Asian Russia, they conquered S Russia and Walachia in the 11th cent., and for almost two centuries warred intermittently with the Byzantine Empire, Hungary, and Kiev. They founded a nomadic state in the steppes along the Black Sea, and were active in commerce with Central Asia and Venice. In the early 12th cent. the main Cuman forces were defeated by the Eastern Slavs. The Mongols decisively defeated the Cumans c.1245. Some were sold as slaves, and many took refuge in Bulgaria and also in Hungary, where they were gradually assimilated into the Hungarian culture. Others joined the khanate of the Golden Horde (also called the Western Kipchaks), which was organized on the former Cuman territory in Russia. www.bartleby.com/65/cu/Cumans.htmlCuman people : member of a nomadic Turkish people, comprising the western branch of the Kipchak confederation until the Mongol invasion (1237) forced them to seek asylum in Hungary. During the 12th century the Cumans acted as auxiliary troops for the Russian princes and in that capacity clashed with Hungarian expeditionary forces; but, by the beginning of the 13th century, they had become more aggressive and launched their own raids into southeastern Transylvania. Soon afterward the Cuman prince Barc and 15,000 of his people were baptized (1227). The first bishopric of Cumania was established in 1228, and King Béla IV of Hungary assumed the title “king of Cumania.” In 1239 he granted asylum to the Cumans and their prince Kuthen, who had earlier tried unsuccessfully to organize Russian resistance to the Mongols. Just before the Mongol invasion of Hungary in 1240–41, however, Kuthen, who was considered a dangerous alien, was murdered; the Cumans left Hungary but were resettled there by Béla in 1245. Béla’s son, the future Stephen V, married a Cuman princess, and, under the rule of their son (Ladislas IV [László]; 1272–90), Cuman influence in Hungarian affairs was great. Nevertheless, the Cumans did not become completely assimilated into Hungarian society for centuries. www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/146369/CumanIf we will analyze the word of cuman by syllables, we will have following result:As we have stated above, Cu [ku:] means blond or fair skin and the second syllable man [ma:n] came of Latin word manus (manus~mans~man ) which means crowd or detachment of soldiers .8 Thus, Cuman means the detachment of blond soldiers .
Russians called Qypchaqs as Polovtsi and Germans called them as Folban -in both cases the words mean blonde . However the definition of blond belongs to the Northern Qypchaq tribes, because the southern Qypchaqs had dark skin because of the climate. In other European sources Qypchaqs also were called with such words like plavey-plawey-plauci (in Polish), plyczak (in Hungarian). All of these word means also blond.
In conclusion we can say that the version of the historians of Islamic world that connected with hollow tree is closer to the myth rather than truth. And the second definition of the word of Qypchaq was made from anatomical point of view, which is scientifically more expedient to be accepted as the main definition of Qypchaq word in general. www.transoxiana.org/0109/baltabaev_qypchaks.html
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Rhezus
Moderator
DERZA STURIA TRAUS
Posts: 1,674
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Post by Rhezus on May 29, 2008 12:57:11 GMT -5
You see, how an EU member country still opress ppl and clearly violates human rights. But all this has a boomerang effect.. Sooner or later it will hit them back, right in the neck.
Some of the interviewed said that greek authorities in purpose changed all toponims, names of cities, villages, rivers etc. The northern part wasn't actually greek - the other example is Aegean Thrace - east of Macedonia. The same problem occures there. That's why greek try to claim everything connected to the names Macedonia and Thracia. But that's not the first time the deviation of history is made. Not a surprise exactly..
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Post by benkovski on May 29, 2008 15:05:54 GMT -5
The Volga Bulgars didn't assimilate into the original Tatars. The original Tatars were in parts assimilated by "Kipchaks, Volga Bulgars, Alans, Kimaks and others". The fact that Volga Bulgars assimilated a part of the original Tatars doesn't make them into Tatars.
The term was popularized by Russia in the early 20th c. and it was intentionally misinterpreted.
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Post by benkovski on May 29, 2008 15:10:46 GMT -5
This is a Volga Bulgar poster in response to the Tatar propaganda.
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