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Post by Niklianos on Aug 11, 2008 18:41:38 GMT -5
Yes it's good to separate from American interest but why should we switch to Russian interest? Why not the have everything in the interest of every country instead of just one or two?
Russia has absolutely no right to invade a sovereign nation. If it only wanted to protect Southern Ossetia then they should only take control of that region and not keep pushing into Georgia. They are bullies no better than Bush being a bully!
Why are some of you so pro-Russian but yet Anti-American? What's the difference when it is only those in charge who are gaining from these wars? We should concentrate on a European Union becoming strong and not have to deal with outside influences in Europe any longer. It has always been the Big Powers causing problems for all the rest no matter who it has been and the common people suffer constantly!
Do not support Russia in this endeavour nor the U.S in their endeavour in Iraq. It is only Putin and Bush along with their cronies who come out ahead and NO ONE ELSE!!
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Post by bordura on Aug 11, 2008 19:09:06 GMT -5
Russia's supporters are usually people that function by the logic: my enemies enemy is my friend. Most of pro Russian feeling comes out of Serbs and Greeks. I understand Serbs much better in that position since they do not act it. They just simply see themselves as naturally linked and affiliated with Russia. They do not hide it and do not feel need to justify it. So as much as i don't like it is is fair to me. Greeks on the other side are confused. Technically as a state they are NATO and EU, but on popular level and individual level they always act not as EU and NATO. They manifest a cryptic pleasure of Russia getting stronger!!! Somehow it is difficult to prove why so. My 2 cents on their behavior is that Greeks see the world Orthodox and the rest of the world. Almost as Jews see the world Jew and gentile. Do you Greeks remember any demonstration in Athens against Russia in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Ossetia, Abkhazia, Georgia? Any demonstration against China in Tibet, Any demonstration at the Chinese Embassy in Athens denouncing Tien An Men massacre? But we all remember demonstrations against USA in Irak, Kosova!!! EU and USA have at the moment the same interest in the position against Russia. Greece as EU member NATO member US Allie naturally should stand against Russia. Can you guys do that? NOPE. Cause deep deep for you orthodox brothers are the real alliance. It doesn't matter how devilish they might be. All Greeks can see is only non Orthodox devils.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 11, 2008 19:18:23 GMT -5
Very nice post Bordura...Just gave you a Karma for that.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Aug 11, 2008 19:24:25 GMT -5
Russia's supporters are usually people that function by the logic: my enemies enemy is my friend. Most of pro Russian feeling comes out of Serbs and Greeks. I understand Serbs much better in that position since they do not act it. They just simply see themselves as naturally linked and affiliated with Russia. They do not hide it and do not feel need to justify it. So as much as i don't like it is is fair to me. Greeks on the other side are confused. Technically as a state they are NATO and EU, but on popular level and individual level they always act not as EU and NATO. They manifest a cryptic pleasure of Russia getting stronger!!! Somehow it is difficult to prove why so. My 2 cents on their behavior is that Greeks see the world Orthodox and the rest of the world. Almost as Jews see the world Jew and gentile. Do you Greeks remember any demonstration in Athens against Russia in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Ossetia, Abkhazia, Georgia? Any demonstration against China in Tibet, Any demonstration at the Chinese Embassy in Athens denouncing Tien An Men massacre? But we all remember demonstrations against USA in Irak, Kosova!!! EU and USA have at the moment the same interest in the position against Russia. Greece as EU member NATO member US Allie naturally should stand against Russia. Can you guys do that? NOPE. Cause deep deep for you orthodox brothers are the real alliance. It doesn't matter how devilish they might be. All Greeks can see is only non Orthodox devils. You did put a lot of thought into this but dont you think it might be a bit of an overgeneralization? I mean you seem to think you have every Greek down pat. Teuta what was good about this post?
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Post by Niklianos on Aug 11, 2008 21:49:18 GMT -5
I don't believe that is the case for Greeks in general just the ones with the loud voices. I know many Greeks who are pro-E.U and anti Imperialistic powers. Serbs are naturally pro-Russian do to the Slavic connection, Orthodoxy and the Russian support for their national interest. Yes there are some Greeks who see only Orthodox brotherhood as being the most important but I think the vast majority do not see things in that light.
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Post by bordura on Aug 12, 2008 0:29:14 GMT -5
Yes there are some Greeks who see only Orthodox brotherhood as being the most important but I think the vast majority do not see things in that light.
I take your word for the above since you are an insider on your culture, but they come across different in everyday contact. Also seeing the Greek flag never missing in any Antiamerican demonstration even in Venezuela what one has to think? Common Greek flag never misses an international square if is antiamerican demonstration. I never saw the Russian flag (which makes much more logic) No demonstration in Belgrade missed the Greek flag during the Kosova conflict. What the hell one has to think when the Greek flag is raised at the same time in NATO headquarters and Brussels (EU) where Greece is member and pledged to be allie and friend with other members.
Yes pana what I wrote is generalization of course I didn't do a study for it. Just so we understand each other correctly, when I meet someone in person I try as much as I can to erase any generalization I have for his/here origin, race, etc. I'm not free of sin, but I try at list to respect the individual.
Generalization on the other hand is a tool we humans use it very successfully and is created out of personal and collective experience. In this case it is a repeated fact that Greek flag never misses any antiamerican demonstration no mater in what corner of the world is taking place, but no one act of demonstration against Russia's, China's, Israeli's, Sudan's, Britain's France's mischiefs on Greek side.
Of course I do believe that are Greeks that think and feel in different way from my generalization, but I also believe that majority are antiamerican at heart and crypto proslavic-orthodox with a twist, NOT all Slavic. We both know you don't give a damn about Polish, Czech, Croat, Sloven that happened to be Catholic.
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Post by Red Brigade on Aug 12, 2008 0:57:34 GMT -5
If you even had some superficial knowledge of recent Greek history you wouldn't be writing such bollox.
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Post by Red Brigade on Aug 12, 2008 1:08:39 GMT -5
Russia has absolutely no right to invade a sovereign nation. If it only wanted to protect Southern Ossetia then they should only take control of that region and not keep pushing into Georgia. At least that is what the Georgian media claims. The reality is that the puppet president of Georgia attempted to ethnically cleanse Ossetia with a lightning war, so as to make it impossible to re-establish the previous status quo. This means that he started the war by breaking a status-quo that existed for more than 15 years. And all these during the Olympics. He failed utterly at this and how he is bitching because he didn't expect Russia would respond. If you live by the sword you die by the sword. Of course Russia doesn't give a flying fuck for the Osetians, they are there to protect their strategic interests. The only thing that irks me is that the county is being devastated and the people have to pay this bonapartist bulshit, since whatever happens, the scum that they have as leader are warm and cosy in their rich mansions.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Aug 12, 2008 1:32:53 GMT -5
Russia do not want even more US influence in the region. Russia will provide the entire necessary assistance to South Ossetia at the have control over the country and, consequently, over the South Caucasus.The threat to gas and oil pipelines that pass through Georgia; Russian control of Georgia would give Russia far more control over Europe's energy. Georgia does not act militarily without the assent of Washington. The Georgian head of State is a US proxy and Georgia is a de facto US protectorate.”Georgian troops have attacked South Ossetia after having been trained by the US. Nato gave a green light to Georgia to provoke Russia. Last month, the United States, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Ukraine conducted Immediate Response 2008, a joint training exercise said to be in “spirit of the NATO Partnership for Peace program,” according to Blackanthem Military News. Immediate Response 2008 was held at the Vaziani Military Base in Georgia. So that Russians' attention will be diverted away from issues in Iran, while the US, UK, France, and Isreal are amassing their presence for a strike against Iran. How Israel has Helped Georgia Train Troops And Supply it with Weapons
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Post by Kassandros on Aug 12, 2008 12:23:23 GMT -5
Bordura, your conclusion is incredible false! lets go.. " Greeks on the other side are confused. Technically as a state they are NATO and EU, but on popular level and individual level they always act not as EU and NATO. They manifest a cryptic pleasure of Russia getting stronger!!!" "EU and USA have at the moment the same interest in the position against Russia." --.......................................................... First of all, dont confuse Nato with EU! Nato is a US military unit that intervenes in wars where US ONLY has interests and needs allys to justify the war. Today, Nato was present in every war that has to do with US interests. ONLY! There is no need for Greek soldiers to get killed for the oils of Iraq or the pipelines of Georgia. Both are for the economic development of the Americans citizens... let them do it alone. Dont expect Greeks individually to be pro for that. Second, EU does NOT agree with Nato and its war. When I say EU, I mean the hard core countries. The day Nato stoped to be guided from UN and Americans started to act alone (with its "allies".. ) Nato became an American war machine that targets everycountry American does not like. Tell me when Iraqis or Aphganis or Iranians or Arabs did something bad to a European country..? NEVER! They did it to Americans, and we all now why,... and now we're forced to accept the "axis of evil" and the "bad" Arabs. Since when Arabs are bad??!! We leave by them for 4,000 years and they have never aggressive to Greece or Christians. NEVER. Suddenly (after they refused to share their oil with US ) they became.. "bad" people! European countries were the ones who said NO to the American demand to accept Georgia and Oukraine to Nato alliance in Bucharest. It was many EU countries who backed Greece against the American will to accept FUROM in Nato. And Thank God... we kept these countries out of Nato. Imagine what would happen today. Greece or France or Germany or Louxenbourg would be in war with Russia today... because Bush wants that. Listen something mate. Russians are Europeans and next to us. Americans dont. Russian didnt try to besiege USA with missiles. USA did it. That is what European nations understand and that is why they dont support US on this issue. Only ex-commie countries and UK follow the American way. The hard core of EU is tottaly AGAINST Nato (US) plans when it comes to Russia. Russia is a friendly country for Europe and a future economic partner. Not an enemy like Bush wants to present it. ..and for one more time... dont confuse EU with Nato. EU is something descent. Nato is an American gang with guns. Unfortunately we're part to both. I hope one day, EU forms its own army and then... bye bye Nato.. "Do you Greeks remember any demonstration in Athens against Russia in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Ossetia, Abkhazia, Georgia? Any demonstration against China in Tibet, Any demonstration at the Chinese Embassy in Athens denouncing Tien An Men massacre? But we all remember demonstrations against USA in Irak, Kosova!!!" ------------------------------------------------ We cant. 500,000 RossoPontian economic immigrants will bit the chit our of us.. lol lol PS. By the way.. I'm interesting more in Balkans than Tien An Men. Remember that... If someday US bombs Albania or Bulgaria for ANY reason... Greeks will protest too. Remember that. We just to buy the American marketing about the "good" and "bad" guys... even if it comes to our benefitt. Thats the Greek spirit.. We see beyond..
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Post by Kassandros on Aug 12, 2008 12:36:48 GMT -5
PS. Teuta... some Karma from you after all that keystroking and all that brainstorming... would be fine..
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Post by atlantis on Aug 12, 2008 12:56:47 GMT -5
^^^^^^^^^ you just prove what bordura said .... with your "fantastic analize " ------------------- Russia is a friendly country for Europe and a future economic partner. Not an enemy like Bush wants to present it. ------------------------------- ;D ;D
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Post by Kassandros on Aug 12, 2008 13:20:47 GMT -5
Do you doubt about it? I know what bordura said.... but you still dont justify your answer; You must explain to us how Russia is a hostile to EU country and how Russia is not a future economic partner of EU. If you succeed to answer these.. then you' and Bordura are right.
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Post by atlantis on Aug 12, 2008 13:57:41 GMT -5
^^^^^ I don’t know why you guys don’t see this like a conflict between Russia and Europe … Georgia is just part of victim from ex -Soviet republics. What Russia is doing is just a warning for the other ex-es… However I’ll believe Europe is going to be like Hitler wanted but not with war…with diplomacy now… Soon Russia and Europe need a border and the time is working for Europe… What started around 90’ won’t go back….. All the tear glasses will be joining in one big piece….it’s part of the project… We all know somebody will pay for that… What Russia is doing will not bring her dream back… Now about the Greeks I think Bordura is right there is an orthodoxy close feeling…. Greeks aren’t too happy because they can loose their favorite status between Europe- America and Russia… so a air situation like that is in their interest...maybe not in "the end". On the other hand I guess Bollana is getting paid too far than Greece…. according to Himara….I’m just not sure if greeks are really interested to create nowadays Himara or vorio-epir issue…as I know Albania, will be stupid to talk more about south Epir "for while"…..who is playing with that….are Greeks under Russian influence ore Europian one…don’t know why greeks want Himara like Russians want Oseeta….
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Post by kartadolofonos on Aug 12, 2008 14:05:35 GMT -5
Georgia PM Saakashvili play a game of Poker against Russia and lost it in the Batle of Russian roulette ;D
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 13, 2008 0:46:30 GMT -5
what wasn't good about that post?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 13, 2008 0:47:57 GMT -5
Basil wrote: I have given you Karmas too...
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Post by Kassandros on Aug 13, 2008 9:56:27 GMT -5
Atlantis, "Now about the Greeks I think Bordura is right there is an orthodoxy close feeling…." ------------------------------------------------------ Most propably you and Bordura didnt get that both Russia and Georgia are 100% Orthodox countries... dont you? Its like parots speaking. You tend to say the same and the same stuff you have learned as it seems. Learn something new to say for the case both countries are Orthodox... as they are now... lol lol Atlantis, Greeks dont want Himara. They just remind Albanians that if they ever have any ideas of Great Albania... there is always the chance to find themselves the Great Greece idea So, Himara will never be a problem... as far Albanians are good and peacefull neighbors. The day Albanians might get any ideas from Bush for a Greater Albania... then Himara will appear on the stage. Consider it as .. a peace tool. PS. THIS IS MY 1000 post! lol lol I have to celebrate it somehow...
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Post by atlantis on Aug 13, 2008 13:00:01 GMT -5
^^^^ What about if Bush might have any idea for a smaller Greece...does that insult albanians? ?? They couldn't do anything when was decided for a smaller Albania 100years ago... There is no hope for greater albania and this is a lost card ,so we don't play with that ...but A Great Albanian Culture is rising up and nobody can stop that ...soon maybe greeks will respect and hag that... Albanians,Arvanitas are historically considered as Russian enemy....So Bush know about that very well......but the important thing now is Albanians and Greeks are good neighbors and Himara can not be on the Russian Real State Market. Bollano should be eliminated by greeks for the greek future....doesn't bother albanians.... Anyway back to the topic.... What's going on in Georgia ,I heard Russian troops are backing off under all World pressure... killing civilians and burning buildings in their way back .... Those people are still Mongols...
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Aug 13, 2008 14:56:29 GMT -5
I have some downtime at work so I'm gonna chime in.
First of all most people on these boards are always very quick at generalizing and stereotyping. Albanians will jump at the first opportunity to portray Greeks as part of some major Orthodox Alliance and Greeks on the other hand will do the utmost to portray Albanians as America's lapdogs. As someone pointed out here both Georgians and Russians are Orthodox. FYROM is majority Orthodox as well. And the only reasons why Serbs and Greeks support each-other is because Albania separates the two. If they were to share a border they'd probably be mortal enemies.
One must also keep in mind that within a community there are different political thoughts. You have pro-American Greeks as you have anti-American Greeks. I'm not an expert on Greece but Greece's anit-Americanism might potentially have its roots in the Greek left wing/communists. If I'm not mistaken "17 November" was a communist org. That organization must have had sympathizers within a broad spectrum of Greek society to have lasted for decades.
So I wouldn't call Greeks who are supporting Russia's actions as doing so because of some innate affinity to all things Orthodox. Some Greeks are legitimately outraged at the hypocrisy that the US has displayed during the recent events. The USA's intervention in Iraq has made a mockery of Int'l law and the US has lost the moral authority to tell Russia what to do.
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