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Post by Prespari on Aug 18, 2008 22:12:01 GMT -5
Well they were citizens of the Greek state, until 1944. Hence the right of return and citizenship should be granted to them. As for they having Albanian citizenship, Enver Hoxha confired that unwanted status upon them years back and they have it. The Cams must have dual citizenship like Albania's Greek minority!
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Aug 18, 2008 22:22:05 GMT -5
Prespari,are you a Cham?
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Post by Prespari on Aug 18, 2008 22:35:36 GMT -5
No, i tend to think of my self as an activist . Its like greeks feel about the genocidal situation that occured and is occuring on Cyprus by those turks.Anyway i wanna put info about the cams thats credible, and nationalistic in tone like some other websites either greek or albanian on the issue. The one from Hajredin Isufi is very interesting as he looked at the defters in turkey and also using greek sources as well to show that state of relgious affiars between both orthodox and muslim speaking albanian cams. P.S: No no, im not a cam, im 100% tosk as they come. ;D
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Aug 18, 2008 22:48:01 GMT -5
You have to find people that went through this stuff to make a judgment... you can't go by what other young people say. I don't know much when it comes Chams.... but I can add and subtract and I bet you $100 internet bucks... that life between the Muslim Chams and the orthodox Greeks wasn't that rosy before the war... they must have barely tolerated each other but found a way to get along.... after all the Greeks did get along with the Muslim Greeks of Komotini... So when the Nazis moved in some Cham community leaders saw this as an opportunity to take sides once and for all..even though probably a good proportion of them were against the idea... to really get back at the Greeks for some of the stuff that went on.... This is perfectly normal behavior as long as you can live with the consequences of your actions... You are young..but in 1991.. there was a very sizable Palestinian population in Kuwait ... that worked there. They weren't too comfy with the Kuwaiti rulers... in fact there was no love lost since Kuwait supported the Jew loving Americans... So when Saddams forces moved in ...guess who took their side and guess how many Palestinians are living in Kuwait today?
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Post by beratsimistrec on Aug 18, 2008 22:56:52 GMT -5
P.S: No no, im not a cam, im 100% tosk as they come. ;D what do you mean by that? Po edhe Camet tosk jane ore karagjoz.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Aug 18, 2008 23:00:16 GMT -5
karagjoz...
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Post by Prespari on Aug 18, 2008 23:02:29 GMT -5
The article clearly talks about the historical process of conversions of the wholly orthodox cam population into muslim and christian pockets. Yes they did not always get along, Hajredin Isufi has written on this, (other articles were published in shekuli this year-i think there still on the newspapers website), however there was also a tolerance as many people shared similar geneoligies, and what is more interesting is that he quotes local greek historians who have written from the area about the pre war situation. People celebrated marriages festivals and other things to together, there were cases of when even priests and hoxhas(imams) giving thier sons and daughters in marriage or high status cams of both muslim and orthodox faith giving thier children in marriage. This did exist and not everything was a polarised as greek hisotry represets and not everything was as rosy as albanian history repesents.
In my own family my grandfathers brother married a half vlach women from Krani(Kranje) whose orthodox mother was from Nizopole while her father was muslim. She spoke vlach when talking with her sisters and her mother built a christian vakef(small holy shrine etc). How can that be if people as you said could not barely tolerate each other. I know its difficult for greeks and many orthodox people(spearte from albanians) to understand but the world is not muslim and 'greek'(orthodox), but is in the shade of grey where everyone is !
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Aug 18, 2008 23:10:33 GMT -5
So when the Nazis moved in some Cham community leaders saw this as an opportunity to take sides once and for all..even though probably a good proportion of them were against the idea... to really get back at the Greeks for some of the stuff that went on.... This is perfectly normal behavior as long as you can live with the consequences of your actions... This is what I like about Greece, always a step ahead of us. We should have done the same in Dropull and send all the Greeks packing home. Now we got to deal with this sh!t.
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 18, 2008 23:19:30 GMT -5
I agree, next time the moment comes, we should not miss it. Unfortunately, I dont think we will get it. Luckily we are winning the war of the births...
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Post by Prespari on Aug 18, 2008 23:31:03 GMT -5
There are three main interternal divisions of southern Albanians Lab, Cam, and the biggest Tosk. Because of that size the label tosk has come to encompase all of them. I belong to the tosk part as family origens are from the Korce/Devoll area !
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Post by beratsimistrec on Aug 18, 2008 23:37:15 GMT -5
There are three main interternal divisions of southern Albanians Lab, Cam, and the biggest Tosk. Because of that size the label tosk has come to encompase all of them. I belong to the tosk part as family origens are from the Korce/Devoll area ! Labet and Chamet are tosk too...and if your family is from the Korca region chances are you have at least one Cham ancestor.
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Aug 18, 2008 23:38:50 GMT -5
There are three main interternal divisions of southern Albanians Lab, Cam, and the biggest Tosk. Because of that size the label tosk has come to encompase all of them. I belong to the tosk part as family origens are from the Korce/Devoll area ! I agree with Prespari. Tosk should encompass all the Southerners other than the Labs and Chams. I never considered myself Tosk but a Lab. I don't think anyone in Albania uses the term Tosk or Geg when referring to themselves. It is mostly an academic terminology.
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Post by beratsimistrec on Aug 18, 2008 23:43:29 GMT -5
There are three main interternal divisions of southern Albanians Lab, Cam, and the biggest Tosk. Because of that size the label tosk has come to encompase all of them. I belong to the tosk part as family origens are from the Korce/Devoll area ! I agree with Prespari. Tosk should encompass all the Southerners other than the Labs and Chams. I never considered myself Tosk but a Lab. I don't think anyone in Albania uses the term Tosk or Geg when referring to themselves. It is mostly an academic terminology. I just said that lol. I always say I'm MistrecBerati even though my family is originally from further south. That's why I was surprised of the name "toskali" I've never heard a tosk Albanian refer to himself as tosk lol.
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Aug 18, 2008 23:50:28 GMT -5
I just said that lol. I always say I'm MistrecBerati even though my family is originally from further south. That's why I was surprised of the name "toskali" I've never heard a tosk Albanian refer to himself as tosk lol. Well the general consensus is that all the Albanians south of Shkumbin are Tosk. I don't agree with that. I think Presapri definition is a more appropriate one. I think Labs and Chams stand apart from the other Southern Tosks. No one in Albania refers to himself as a Tosk. There are Korcare, Beratas, Permetare, Kolonjare, Mallakastriote but no Tosks.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 19, 2008 0:31:40 GMT -5
Gheg and Tosk are dialects not regions. Are not even geographical entities. Some Greeks mistaken it...often...
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 19, 2008 0:36:59 GMT -5
Its the first time Ive ever been referred to as a Tosk, or referred to myself as one... but I like this particular name...
Plus, we have also had "ToskPride" here who would go about his tantrums against the "malok" government... lol
Come to think of it, the vast majority of members of the Albanian forum have been from southern Albania by origin.
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Post by captainalbania on Aug 19, 2008 1:30:44 GMT -5
except for me. im from Tirane.
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Aug 19, 2008 1:38:39 GMT -5
except for me. im from Tirane. Denbabadens?
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Post by beratsimistrec on Aug 19, 2008 9:48:10 GMT -5
I just said that lol. I always say I'm MistrecBerati even though my family is originally from further south. That's why I was surprised of the name "toskali" I've never heard a tosk Albanian refer to himself as tosk lol. Well the general consensus is that all the Albanians south of Shkumbin are Tosk. I don't agree with that. I think Presapri definition is a more appropriate one. I think Labs and Chams stand apart from the other Southern Tosks. No one in Albania refers to himself as a Tosk. There are Korcare, Beratas, Permetare, Kolonjare, Mallakastriote but no Tosks. well there are labe in Permeti and in Mallakastra but not in Fieri. There are also Chams in Korca and Berati lol so how do they stand apart? I don't think anyone carries id's to identify themselves lol. I agree with that consensus because those regions are pretty similar. For example, laberia is famous for their polifonik music, and you would never think of Gramshi to sing polifonike lol. But look at this video:
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Post by beratsimistrec on Aug 19, 2008 9:50:05 GMT -5
except for me. im from Tirane. Denbabadens? if you are den baba den from Tirana then you're originally from Kurdistan hahaha jk
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