Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Sept 19, 2008 9:53:42 GMT -5
Tell me something I don't know Tito, but why don't you go back way before '91? What happened to cause the immenent war? And what caused it to last so long? Who was sitting by watching it all happen? You and these videos you posted don't have the answer. Enough said.
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Post by tito on Sept 19, 2008 10:07:31 GMT -5
Tell me something I don't know Tito, but why don't you go back way before '91? Because unlike you I have actually read what the poll-options say. You and these videos you posted don't have the answer. Jok eto ti imas, Mesic i Gligorov ti SVE KAZU ali valja priznati istinu, agresorko debela.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Sept 19, 2008 12:25:58 GMT -5
If you actually read my first post here, I didn't find any suitable poll ti pick so I made up my own. When did I ever not agree with your "istina"? I am however challenging you and anyone else to answer my above questions to find the real istina.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Sept 19, 2008 12:31:43 GMT -5
Ne daj se illyria...
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Post by tito on Sept 19, 2008 13:08:14 GMT -5
I am however challenging you and anyone else to answer my above questions to find the real istina. Feel free to open another topic about the "true reason" for Milosevics&Tudjmans Karadjordjevo plan.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Sept 19, 2008 14:20:46 GMT -5
You are the one who made provocations, with these videos. You don't think that any sane and intelligent Croat such as myself doesn't know all this and more ?
I don't need to open a topic for their true reason of Karadjordjevo, I'm asking for the real reason for the war period; ommiting that plan. The war didn't start in Bosnia, remember? I doubt the war was constructed soley on one meeting in the year the offense began, and you'd have to be stupid enough to believe that it was.
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Post by tito on Sept 19, 2008 16:41:31 GMT -5
You are the one who made provocations, with these videos. I don’t consider them provocative at all, why would you even say that? You don't think that any sane and intelligent Croat such as myself doesn't know all this and more ? As I said before: Mesic i Gligorov ti SVE KAZU ali valja priznati istinu, agresorko debela. I don't need to open a topic for their true reason of Karadjordjevo, I'm asking for the real reason for the war period; ommiting that plan. The war didn't start in Bosnia, remember? Pa jebem te mutavu, i to ti je Mesic objasnio: rat je prebacen iz Hrvatske u BiH zbog Karadjordjeva!
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Post by theblackswans on Sept 19, 2008 16:54:46 GMT -5
By the research of, Bosnian Muslim, Mirsad Tocaka out of the 100 000 death toll of the Bosnian war, 30 000 were SERBS. More than the number of Croats killed in the Krajina conflict and Albanians killed in Kosovo...COMBINED. Enough said. You are posting lies.... Almost half of the victims died in the first months of the war, when Serb forces helped by the Yugoslav army gained control of two-thirds of Bosnia by expelling and killing many in their notorious "ethnic cleansing" campaign. Sixty-six percent of those killed were ethnic Muslims, 26 percent Serbs and eight percent Croats, said Tokaca. Also more then half the serb victims were soldiers, while on the bosniak side the majority were civilians and more women then either side.... the fact that the majority of the victims died in the early months of 1992 is a clear indicator of a Serbian etnic cleansing campaign. Silly chetnik hordes we would have easily dealt with you had there not been an arms embargo on weapons purchases... 100% correct! ;D
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Post by SKORIC on Sept 20, 2008 0:19:20 GMT -5
Casualty figures according to the Demographic Unit at the ICTY Total 102,622 Bosniaks & Croats c. 72,000 Serbs c. 30,700 Total civilians 55,261 Bosniaks & Croats c. 38,000 Serbs c. 16,700 Total soldiers 47,360 Bosniaks c. 28,000 Serbs c. 14,000 Croats c. 6,000
If you take away teh Croat civilians killed. Number of Bosniak civilians would be almost the same as their soldiers. Sadly still alot of civilians but not the overwhelming majority over soldiers and not the 250 000 muslim civilians the media portrayes.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 20, 2008 0:50:36 GMT -5
Riddle me this: Why are Croat and Muslim casualties put together when they fought each other and how many of those Muslim casualties were the result of fighting between Adbic and Izebegovic?
There is a reason why Muslim casualties were the highest and it has to do with a combination of being the largest minority, fighting between Karadzic/Izebegovic, fighting between Adbic/Izebegovic, fighting between Izebegovic/Tudjman and fighting between Adbic/Tudjman. On top of that there is the obvious inter tribal/clan fighting that resulted in atrocities against civilians and the careless strategies taken by commanders which resulted in even more civilian deaths through artillery/mortar strikes. Of course, only an idiot would believe there isn’t going to be high civilian casualties in a civil war.
As far as I am concerned, all prosecutions should be carried out in Belgrade since Serbia was the only state which took in wounded from all sides and never transgressed borders of other republics.
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Post by divingfalcon on Sept 20, 2008 2:49:18 GMT -5
what skoric has posted is estimates. The RDC Norweigan study i sbeing discussed here.
Of all the civilians killed 84.7% were Bosniak. Mostly the result of ethnic cleansing in 1992 in Bratunac, Srebrenica, Brcko, Prijedor, Visegrad and Foca. All Bosniak majority towns before the war. --------
Trialed in Serbia ? are you on crack?
Where i lived Artillery started shelling from across the drinainto my town. Not to mention the number of serbs from serbia who participated and helped genocide. You are also wrong on your basis. Many man from Srebrenica who try to flee the massacre via serbia were actually captured, tortured and sent back to VRS or pow war camps in Bosnia where they were tortured and some killed.
Serbia aided the genocide in Bosnia there is no doubt of that. Where would the Bosnian serbs get fuel for their tanks for example? come on what you are saying you yourself know is a lie. then why the hell do you continue to run the same bulls#$ lines. Serbian propaganda truely has no logic.we need to clearly distinguish between facts and propaganda on all sides...
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Post by divingfalcon on Sept 20, 2008 2:52:12 GMT -5
Recent research have shown that most of the 97,207 [11] documented casualties (soldiers and civilians) during Bosnian War were Bosniaks (65%), with Serbs in second (25%) and Croats (8%) in third place. However, 83 percent of civilian victims were Bosniaks, 10 percent were Serbs and more than 5 percent were Croats, followed by a small number of others such as Albanians or Romani people. The total figure of dead could rise by a maximum of another 10,000 for the entire country due to ongoing research. [14] [15][17] Further research is ongoing.
There are no precise statistics dealing with the casualties of the Croat-Bosniak conflict along ethnic lines. The RDC's data on human losses in the regions caught in the Croat-Bosniak conflict as part of the wider Bosnian War, however, can serve as a rough approximation. According to this data, in Central Bosnia most of the 10,448 documented casualties (soldiers and civilians) were Bosniaks (62%), with Croats in second (24%) and Serbs (13%) in third place. It should be noted that the municipalities of Gornji Vakuf and Bugojno also geographically located in Central Bosnia (known as Gornje Povrbasje region), with the 1,337 documented casualties are not included in Central Bosnia statistics, but in Vrbas region. Anyway, around 80% of the casualties from Gornje Povrbasje were Bosniaks. In the region of Neretva river of 6,717 casualties, 54% were Bosniaks, 24% Serbs and 21% Croats. The casualties in those regions were mostly but not exclusively the consequence of Croat-Bosniak conflict. To a lesser extent the conflict with the Serbs also resulted in a number of casualties included in the statistics. For instance, a number of Serbs were massacred by Croat forces in June 1992 in the village of Èipuljiæ located in Bugojno municipality ------------
Like you said civilians are naturally the highest victims in any war. However, on the serbian side the number of civilian deaths vs soldiers is more or less the same. Clearly indicating your cowardly ways of ethnically cleanisng unarmed civilians.
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Post by divingfalcon on Sept 20, 2008 2:59:27 GMT -5
"In May 2004, forensic experts have exhumed remains of 72 Bosniak victims, including 16 children and 10 women, summarily executed by the Bosnian Serb forces in the village of Zaklopaca in Vlasenica area - just outside of Srebrenica - at the outbreak of the 1992-95 war. The bodies were first buried in Zaklopaca, but later dug up, moved about two kilometers away and covered by heavy stone blocks to cover up the crime. On June 21, 2008, Bosnia's Federal News Agency reported that 55 DNA identified Bosniak victims from Zaklopaca mass grave have been finally laid to rest. The youngest victim was 5-year old Naida Hodzic and the oldest victim was 62-year old Fatima Berbic." The fatc is the Srebrenica massacre was not just a killing of military age man. Make no mistake about it the chetnik hordes would have been more then happy to kill women and kids as well. it was only the media spotlight and un presence that saved these women and children. However, still many children and women were killed in 1995 and many more tortured or raped... very heroic and reason to be proud off....
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 20, 2008 3:12:10 GMT -5
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Post by bosanskinovi on Sept 20, 2008 3:44:28 GMT -5
This pretty much speaks for itself.
And Vojislav, do you really think your input is valued by anyone other then Serbs on this forum? I don't see why you even bother...
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Sept 20, 2008 4:27:03 GMT -5
You still didn't answer my question Tito, you are saying the same thing over and over again. The war happened, NOT only because of one meeting, how much more do I have to explain to you? Istina? Mesic and co are not exactly going to tell people the real istina, even if they so do know it themselves.
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 20, 2008 4:45:26 GMT -5
This pretty much speaks for itself. Lets pretend that is true. If that is the case then its the result of... ...a combination of being the largest minority, fighting between Karadzic/Izebegovic, fighting between Adbic/Izebegovic, fighting between Izebegovic/Tudjman and fighting between Adbic/Tudjman. It has nothing to do with genocide or whatnot. And Vojislav, do you really think your input is valued by anyone other then Serbs on this forum? I don't see why you even bother... I value non idiotic opinions therefore I highly value the opinion of a Greek called Pyrros and a Croat called Fender.
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Post by divingfalcon on Sept 20, 2008 5:49:47 GMT -5
I'am sorry to point this out to you but i think Alija was a bad leader. He was poticly weak, had there not been an embargo on weapons purchases- let me assure you we would have easily been able to buy 1-2 billion dollars worth of weapons and we would not have the issues we have today.nor would you have dared to attack Bosnia and its democratic government.
What propaganda are you talking about. the serbian propaganda machine was 10 more powerful in convincing people to go out come from another country hundreds of kilometres away (serbia) and attack and sniper civilians in Sarajevo. That is what i call a strong propaganda machine. Also stop misquoting alija's book. im happy to give you alink to the whole book rather then you missquoting 1 quote. anyway:
This is the same source that serbs use to point that 200,000 people did not die in the war...and besides many serbs such as in sarajevo died from serbian/jna artillery and aerial strikes. Just as Mladic commands in a radio intercept to bomb all of Sarajevo because theyre is just a smaller number of serbs then bosniaks there.
"An international team of experts evaluated the findings before they were released. More than 240,000 pieces of data have been collected, processed, checked, compared and evaluated by international team of experts "..The IDC norweigan led and funded study is the most comprahensive study done so far..."
Utter rubish. Then why did the international court rule that genocide DID occur in Bosnia? Why is it that in a matter of weeks virtually no Bosniaks remained in about 60% of Bosnia's territory, while before the war they were the majority in almost EVERY major town in Bosnia except Banja Luka...
Why is it that not a SIngle mosque remained in the so called 'RS' and that then in 1996 the serbs pretended to a foreign delegation that there wasnt any mosques in that part of Bosnia before the war. If this is not genocide i dont know what is.
Like i said i challenge you to find me a more accurate source then that one and even those serbs killed many were actually killed as a result of VRS heavy artillery, MRLS and ground attack aircraft in the initial stages of the war....
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Post by Novus Dis on Sept 20, 2008 8:36:45 GMT -5
What propaganda are you talking about. the serbian propaganda machine was 10 more powerful in convincing people to go out come from another country hundreds of kilometres away (serbia) and attack and sniper civilians in Sarajevo. That is what i call a strong propaganda machine. Izebegovic's propaganda was strong enough to convince people from the Middle East and North Africa to join Izebegovic's cause.
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Post by divingfalcon on Sept 20, 2008 8:52:03 GMT -5
dude no they werent less. they were about the same. However, it is obvious from the stats who it was that ordered and committed ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Prijedor,Srebrenica,Bratunac,Brcko,Visegrad,Zvornik..etc were all preety much Bosnian towns. Serbs were rural folk overall.
Well do you have a better or more comprhensive, less biased study then? I don't see why Norway- a christian side would favour the Bosniak Muslim side... ??
Serbs to this day can not or do not want to comprahend the truth and as such want to make everything seem equal. It is the serbs (mainly from Serbia, Montenegro and other cetnik hordes) who started ethnically cleansing eastern Bosnian towns such as Bijelina,Zvornik and Bratunac before even one shot in self defense was fired at them. An example is the 3000 Bosniaks including women and babies ( i even posed you the site of a mass grave that included bodies of babies indentified through DNK DNA analysis). The truth is there but claiming some equaliy in crimes is the problem and is in fact supporting the twisted mental genocidal ideas of those who planned them and executed the liquidation and expulsion of innocent people.
It must be known and recognised who the victims were, who killed them- on bosniak, serbian and croat sides.
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