|
Post by Novus Dis on Apr 27, 2008 6:49:52 GMT -5
Fender, what is your opinion on Srpska Krajina?
|
|
niquetamere
Amicus
Ancient Bosnian Serbatron
Posts: 529
|
Post by niquetamere on Apr 27, 2008 13:18:36 GMT -5
I am beyond anxious to read the answer as well, as he has deleted the post where I asked him about Srpska Krajina after he said 'Kosovo' has no legitimacy. illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=srbijaserbia&action=display&thread=7095Please Fender, enlighten us! How is it that you are ALWAYS on guard to defend Serbia and the issue with Kosovo but you've never once said anything about Srpska Krajina. How does that work? All the defenses you have for Serbia and Kosovo are counter productive when the argument is issued on a flip side. Tell us how you feel about Srpska Krajina and Republika Srpska. An answer from a 'Croat' such as yourself should be extremely interesting given the fact that you always side with Pro Serbian issues. Also, if you could, please explain from your POV, what happened in Vukovar and who is to blame. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Apr 27, 2008 18:08:13 GMT -5
Notice : any personal attacks will not be tolerated and imediatley deleted.
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Apr 27, 2008 18:24:31 GMT -5
While this question is for Fender I want to voice my opinion on this matter.
In my opinion the Krajina Serbs had every right to pick up arms and defend themselves against the Nationalistic mania that swept the entire region as history does repeat itself. However when the higher powers hashed out the Autonomy deal it should have been accepted.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 27, 2008 18:37:02 GMT -5
Guys, autonomy may have been a possibility, but independance would have never occurred because of it violation.
|
|
CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
|
Post by CiKoLa on Apr 27, 2008 19:23:13 GMT -5
Off Topic
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Apr 27, 2008 19:25:30 GMT -5
Read my post again.......Duh
|
|
Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
Ha!
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by Anthologic on Apr 27, 2008 19:55:35 GMT -5
Yes when something doesn't exist anymore, it should be banned from all conversation.
Jesus comes to mind.
|
|
Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
Posts: 2,653
|
Post by Fender on Apr 28, 2008 0:45:13 GMT -5
Fender, what is your opinion on Srpska Krajina? My opinion in Srpska Krajina. It goes something like this. Srpska Krajina was formed during the ottoman times as a "last defence line". The powers to be at the time used the Serbs on that frontier and gave them a new home at the same time. Fast forward to WW2. The Serbs of that region are still there but along comes Pavelic and administers some ethnic cleansing. Keep in mind that the Serbs are of that region are Croatian citizens so it was a grossly bad move on the part of Pavelic. Lets now move onto 1990 onwards. Tudjman came into power on a wave of emotion and nationalism, more so than anti communist rhetoric. This obviously worried the Krajina Serbs of the time, with justification. At the same time they might have jumped the gun a little to quickly. As Vinjak pointed out, they should have taken the autonomy deal. Now, having said that, I still couldn't see any justification with Operation Storm to clean out 250,000 people. After all, these people still were Croatian citizens and have family history going back centuries. The Krajina Serbs weren't being protected by Milosevic and any suggestion that that part of the territory was going to annexed, was purely for propaganda purposes and nothing more. Tudjman was too heavy handed with his response. It wasn't necessary. The Croatian government of today should do more to ensure its citizens can return to their homes to restart their lives.
|
|
Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
Posts: 2,653
|
Post by Fender on Apr 28, 2008 0:51:20 GMT -5
I am beyond anxious to read the answer as well, as he has deleted the post where I asked him about Srpska Krajina after he said 'Kosovo' has no legitimacy. illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=srbijaserbia&action=display&thread=7095Please Fender, enlighten us! How is it that you are ALWAYS on guard to defend Serbia and the issue with Kosovo but you've never once said anything about Srpska Krajina. How does that work? All the defenses you have for Serbia and Kosovo are counter productive when the argument is issued on a flip side. Tell us how you feel about Srpska Krajina and Republika Srpska. An answer from a 'Croat' such as yourself should be extremely interesting given the fact that you always side with Pro Serbian issues. Also, if you could, please explain from your POV, what happened in Vukovar and who is to blame. Thanks. 1. Srpska Krajina is now a dead issue 2. On Vukovar, this was instigated by Tudjman to ensure he would recieve outside help. He fed troops to the frontline knowing full well that they would be massacered. He would hardly ever send in the necessary equipment to help reinforce the troops. All of this is first hand from someone that I know who is from Vukovar and fought in the front lines. 3. Tudjman failed as a diplomat to ensure any talks were fruitful. 4. In short, Vukovar was sacrificed by Tudjman as a means to an end. Disgusting if you ask me. Who in there right mind would have taken on the Yugoslav army without proper weapons. 5. Get off your high horse and converse properely.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 28, 2008 1:58:15 GMT -5
Nice response Fender.
|
|
damo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by damo on Apr 29, 2008 0:14:28 GMT -5
Its like you think that the Croats had full control of the consequences? The Croats copped it first, then the Bosnians and then the Albanians. Although I love how you left out the main protagonist in this debate. So you call demolition of a large town "jumping the gun"?
Here you sound like that Sheik in Australia that says women who dress in skimpy clothing are to be blamed for being raped. I doubt you were advocating for Tudjman to fight with everything he had to defend Vukovar, or to take on the JNA with proper weaponry - Instead, I would hazzard a guess that you wanted the Croats to roll over and take it up the ass from the Serbs and be cleansed from their own territory. Your beloved Tito changed the constituion to avoid domination by one ethnicity - i.e. the Serbs.
At the end of the day Tudjman won the end game. With all his criticisms, and there are many, he still dealt with the severing and occupation of 30% of his own territory plus UN arms embagoes and no initial outside help. He didnt sacrifice Vukovar, it was in line to get smashed by the Serbs regardless of what you may think.
Where are the Croats to defend themselves on this bulletin board? This Fender surely cant claim to speak on behalf of Croats?
|
|
damo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by damo on Apr 29, 2008 0:15:45 GMT -5
Why was the only Croats response to this topic edited?
|
|
damo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by damo on Apr 29, 2008 0:24:00 GMT -5
So Vukovar, Ovcara, Skabrnja, Vocin, Dubrovnik were part of their "right" to defend themselves?
This argument is retarded. No-one should be denied the right to defend themselves. Croatia did this against the Serb dominated JNA in 1991. Serbs had every right to defend themselves, and WWII was a living memory for some. Although it is no excuse to then become the aggressor. What the Serbs did in Krajina were no different to Ustasa / Chetnik and other excesses during the WWII. They lost all sympathy to be dealt with on equal terms.
|
|
Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
Posts: 2,653
|
Post by Fender on Apr 29, 2008 1:00:28 GMT -5
Its like you think that the Croats had full control of the consequences? The Croats copped it first, then the Bosnians and then the Albanians. Although I love how you left out the main protagonist in this debate. So you call demolition of a large town "jumping the gun"? Here you sound like that Sheik in Australia that says women who dress in skimpy clothing are to be blamed for being raped. I doubt you were advocating for Tudjman to fight with everything he had to defend Vukovar, or to take on the JNA with proper weaponry - Instead, I would hazzard a guess that you wanted the Croats to roll over and take it up the ass from the Serbs and be cleansed from their own territory. Your beloved Tito changed the constituion to avoid domination by one ethnicity - i.e. the Serbs. At the end of the day Tudjman won the end game. With all his criticisms, and there are many, he still dealt with the severing and occupation of 30% of his own territory plus UN arms embagoes and no initial outside help. He didnt sacrifice Vukovar, it was in line to get smashed by the Serbs regardless of what you may think. Where are the Croats to defend themselves on this bulletin board? This Fender surely cant claim to speak on behalf of Croats? Your response is typical of those that wish to shoot first and ask questions later. My point was and you just conveintly decided to ignore was to point out the futility in defending a town that couldn't be defended. Tudjman knew this, but still sent young boys to the slaughter. This is what your advocating. Once the shooting had died down, the Serbs held Vukovar for a couple of years but handed it back to Croatia in 1998. The main point here is that if Tudjman was smart, he should have left Vukovar alone because hindsight will tell you that the Serbs never intended on keeping it anyway. If Tudjman had walked away, he would have had a town handed back to him in better condition than what it is today, he would have spared countless lives of Croatians sent to their imminent death. But no, for you its smarter to send people on a suicide mission to prove a point that really didn't matter. So no Tudjman didn't really win as you like to put it. Whats a life worth when its sent to certain death.
|
|
CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
|
Post by CiKoLa on Apr 29, 2008 1:04:06 GMT -5
If Tudjman had walked away ... the JNA and the cetnik serbs would have reached Zagreb.
|
|
Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
Posts: 2,653
|
Post by Fender on Apr 29, 2008 1:07:03 GMT -5
If Tudjman had walked away ... the JNA and the cetnik serbs would have reached Zagreb. That doesn't make any sense because Tudjman was defeated outright in Vukovar. Vukovar would have provided the perfect staging point for further incursions, but it never happened.
|
|
CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
|
Post by CiKoLa on Apr 29, 2008 1:30:50 GMT -5
As a result of the international communities intervention, no.
The JNA's objectives in the first stage of the battle were to take the Serb-inhabited areas of Eastern Slavonia plus Vukovar, then to progress west via Vinkovci and Osijek to Zagreb.
After the JNA took Vukovar it advanced on its plan to reach Zagreb by moving towards Osijek but was faced with much more opposition from the Croatian side than it expected.
Osijek was subjected to intensive shelling but at this point serbia's Slobodan Milosevic intervened. The JNA had at this stage captured most of the serb-inhabited towns of Croatia and Milosevic had little interest in taking Croatian-inhabited territory. So they pulled back.
|
|
damo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by damo on Apr 29, 2008 1:34:32 GMT -5
I guess I can only shoot down what I see. How far should Tudjman have walked away until he turned around and fought to defend what is his? Hindsight tells me that because the JNA suffered comparitively large losses to the relatively small contingent defending Vukovar they stopped pushing forward. Vinkvci was on their list as the next city to take. The expense of demolishing Vukovar made the journey to Zagreb too expensive to take further. By the way Tudjman really didnt send that many to their deaths. Most of the perished were inhabitants defending their own town, including some Serbs who lived there. The rest were civilians who couldnt flee because they were surrounded.
Interesting though, you still point the finger at Tudjman and the Croats for defending themselves. Still no finger of blame pointed to the JNA and Chetniks who thought it was OK to demolish the town and ravage 30% of your home country. I think a better solution than Tudjman turning around and leaving the city was for Slobo and the Serbian backed JNA to not level it in the first place.
|
|
CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
|
Post by CiKoLa on Apr 29, 2008 1:39:08 GMT -5
Had there been no resistance in both Vukovar and later Osijek the JNA would have advanced and reached Ban Jelacic Sq. Tudjman did what he had to do ... and he won eventually.
|
|