rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 6, 2009 13:01:44 GMT -5
New Suliote documentary .....a must see.. and yes there will be a test on it ... A Greek documentary w/Alb subtitles ...finally the truth pay attention @ time 6:33part 2 the narrator get a little theatrical goofy about that they are greeks regardless of what they were...ahahahahah even after he states in first video that they were not Greek. part 3
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 6, 2009 13:19:13 GMT -5
Falemnderit që e solle Rex.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 6, 2009 14:40:56 GMT -5
you watch all 3 and you get some good detail out of this mini Greek documentary ...they state that they were non Greek but then they like the *ILLYRIA in it and call them Greeks anyways ....typical the docu gives you some truth and then they wipe it away... and thats what Rexxy calls "Greek this - Greek that " ...basicly what it is ....is internal situation between Ali and the suliote leaders ..nothing to do with religion .... the narrator even states that it was chop suey between them and also internally between the suliotes ... - But one has to remember who Ali Pash was before he was a made a Pasha....he was a warlord/theif/mafia who was made a sheriff (pasha)bcs it was the only way the ottoman could control him in some manner or less ... and he knew well many other suliotes and other Arvanitis of the same nature and club and they knew him ...knew each other bcs they were all land pirates that were in cahoots together they stole together... *Illyria in it - the suliote act of being free and fight for freedom at whatever costs...
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 7, 2009 6:35:15 GMT -5
Rexy why did you PMed me?
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Post by Kastorianos on Feb 7, 2009 6:53:03 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with them being non-greek in origin. The host says they were probably not Greeks because there wasnt sth like a Greek state back then. But the same goes for an albanian state. After all these people seemed to have no ethnic consciousness at all...most of them spoke arvanitika...but that doesnt make them = albanians. I cant imagine them to be close related to some Kosovar. Impossible.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 7:17:31 GMT -5
They were Albanian. That they had no strong national consciousness of a modern equivalent does not change the fact that they were ethnic Albanians, speaking the Albanian language, that they had Albanian traditions and so forth. Their assimilation into Greek occured only in the 19th century. And their resemblance with northern Albanians, especially the Malsors, is quite evident to anyone with information. Just look at the hair-styles for instance, and compare them to the famous "perche" of the north. Their own traditions held their ancestors as soldiers of Skanderbeg who left the north to escape the Turks. Many faras in Himara also trace their lineage to Mirdita, Mati, Lezha etc in the north.
I know these are hard facts to accept, considering the symbolic status Suli has received in Greek historiography, with Zalongo and all. But this is the truth. When seeing their warlike nature, their defiance of death, their very essence, no distinction can be made between them and the Lebër of Labëria in the north, or the Malsors further up north. Some of them just happened to become incorporated into the Greek War of Independence like many other Albanians such as Mustabej Dangëllia, Celo Myrto, Ago Vashari, etc ... and their heroism, which they had displayed many years prior, were now witnessed once again, but this time by the Greeks ... who amazed with this unprecedented type of reckless behaviour, made a legend out of them, trying to silence the talks around their origins as much as possible ... infact, during the time of Marko Bocari, these people were still not assimilated into Greeks. I wonder, what forced him to write a dictionary during his stay in Corfu? To learn his men Greek, possibly?
Even the name Suli, "mountain summit", is Albanian.
Actually their dialect was of the Chams ... this dialect, although very close to Arvanitika (Arbërishte), has still certain features of its own making it distinct.
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Post by Kastorianos on Feb 7, 2009 7:56:03 GMT -5
They were not Albanian. You are Albanian. The Souliotes were Arvanites.
Their language is and was called arvanitika. Its an inbetween of Tosk Albanian and the arvanitika spoken in southern Greece.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 7, 2009 7:56:32 GMT -5
Lets say I have a cousin...and something happens and he lives and raised by a neighboring family...that has vendetta...gjak...lol...with mine. One day my cousin comes and kills my brother because of the vendeta even though he is of the same blood... ... ... Can I be proud of him and base my family pride on his later achievements? When he considers himself as a member of the other "rival" family.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 8:26:20 GMT -5
Actually the Suliotes are best explained as Chams, since the dictionary of Marko Bocari testifies to this. While Cham and Tosk are close dialects with Arvanitika, there are still some differences which set them apart. In this respect, the Suliotes fall closer to the Cham category than the Arvanitika one. An example, the word for tongue;
Suliot/Cham; Gluha, Tosk Albanian; Gjuha, Arvanitika; Gljuha, Geg Albanian; Giuha/Guha, Standard Albanian; Gjuha
And the Suliot people were Albanians, just as some Sphakiote in Crete was a Greek at the time, despite him not having a national consciousness equivalent to that of modern Greeks. Their language was an Albanian dialect and their traditions were indistinguishable from that of the Albanians up north. Many Greek authors confirm this, like K. Biris & André Gerolymatos. Their own oral tradition holds them as renegades from Kruja, which is in Geg land.
Exactly, this is called the Cham dialect!
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Post by kasso on Feb 7, 2009 8:40:57 GMT -5
They were not Albanian. You are Albanian. The Souliotes were Arvanites. Their language is and was called arvanitika. Its an inbetween of Tosk Albanian and the arvanitika spoken in southern Greece. With your logic Kosovars are not Albanians and neither the Malesors or the Chams. Fact is that they were a group of ethnic Albanians. The very word Arvanit means Albanian!
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Post by Kastorianos on Feb 7, 2009 8:42:28 GMT -5
I know, I know. My mother is from that region.
The term Albanian is pretty modern. While Greek "Ellinas" is very old. You cannot give a group of people a name or calling that didnt exist at the time they were living, or even a naming that they emphatically opposed. Its like saying the Illyrians were Albanians. Or the germanic tribes were "Deutsche".
Im of the opinion that we should be historically correct (especially because of the political brisance of this issue) and call them Arvanites and to leave it at that.
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Post by podgoricanin on Feb 7, 2009 8:44:30 GMT -5
Just look at the hair-styles for instance, and compare them to the famous "perche" of the north.
^ Donnie, are you basing your conclusion off a hair style....Thats what I am reading and that was your first similarity to ensure those were of albanian descent. I never knew we could achieve such. Going forward though, I will ensure my hair style stays the same all day , every day. Just so I don't get classified into a different ethnicity.............hehe
Get over it.....stop trying to adjust history and claim the world is yours
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Post by kasso on Feb 7, 2009 8:48:39 GMT -5
Kastorianos,
Albania as a cultural area has existed long before the creation of the modern Albanian state. The Arvanites, now largely assimilated, were an ethnic Albanian group, weather you like it or not!
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 8:57:35 GMT -5
Your mother speaks the Albanian dialect of the Chams?
Firstly, exactly how did you conclude the term Albanian as "new"?
And secondly, your analogy is incorrect. The Suliots and early Arvanites did identify as Albanians; why else call themselves Arbëror and their language as Arbërishte, old terms for Albanians and Albanian; likewise Pjetër Bogdani, an Albanian Archbishop of Skopje originally from Has, calls us/his people Arbënesh, much like the Albanians of Italy who call themselves Arbëresh.
If anything, it is the term Ellhnes which is new, artificially reintroduced as the successor of the earlier term Romioi which was a rather Orthodox-religious identification. On the other hand, the Albanians, including the Arvanites and Suliots, have consistenly made us of the self-identifying terms Arbëror and Arbëresh. When writing the dictionary, Marko Bocari gave it the title "Fjalorth Romaiko-Arbërishte e thjesht" -- see the term 'Arbërishte' ?
Except that this would be to settle with a lie. Which I will not. The Arvanites were a group who settled in Central & Southern Greece as well as the islands of the Ioanian and Aegean. The Suliots were part of the Cham branch, and were described as Albanians by contemporary visitors who saw and visited them in the early 19th century.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 9:05:34 GMT -5
Just look at the hair-styles for instance, and compare them to the famous "perche" of the north. ^ Donnie, are you basing your conclusion off a hair style....Thats what I am reading and that was your first similarity to ensure those were of albanian descent. I never knew we could achieve such. Going forward though, I will ensure my hair style stays the same all day , every day. Just so I don't get classified into a different ethnicity.............hehe Get over it.....stop trying to adjust history and claim the world is yours That is not at all what I am basing my case on you turd. The hair-style was meant to illustrate their common traditions with Malsors. Their Albanian identity is made obvious by contemporary visitors from the West, like William M. Leake who wrote; " The Suliots are a segment of Camëria, one of the four branches that make up Albania" And of course the many sources that come from the Greeks themselves like K. Biris or André Gerolymatos who confirm the Albanian origins of the Suliots. I mean watch the documentary ... and if you know neither autochtonous language of the Balkans, ask the Greeks to translate what the man in the documentary says about the Suliots -- and he is GREEK!
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Post by podgoricanin on Feb 7, 2009 9:13:06 GMT -5
That is not at all what I am basing my case on you turd. The hair-style was meant to illustrate their common traditions with Malsors. Their Albanian identity is made obvious by contemporary visitors from the West, like William M. Leake who wrote;
^ Don't get so bent out of shape! I had no idea hair styles change history! I'm surprised you didn't try to delete this post also.......given anything that contradicts your thoughts are a big NO NO!
I did read the documentary! Thanks
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 9:18:23 GMT -5
Don't flatter yourself, your opinion is that of a mediocre simpleton who delivers no substance behind his conclusions. I only deleted your reply in KF because you were behaving disrespectfully ... as long as you reply correctly, they will remain.
If I was afraid of debate, wouldn't I be deleting Kastorianos' replies and those of Patrinos ... or highdyke?
And did you understand it? Do you speak Albanian?
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Post by podgoricanin on Feb 7, 2009 9:32:56 GMT -5
No SIR, I don't understand it, however I have family that understands it.....GOOD ENOUGH!
I won't lose any sleep whether u debate a topic with myself or not........thats for sure! I've read the debates between Highduke and yourself...... I'm surprised you didn't utilize your famous responses......the DELETE button..
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Post by Kastorianos on Feb 7, 2009 9:35:18 GMT -5
Where is your problem with calling them what they call themselves? If they were "Albanians" they would call themselves as such. But they dont. Probably with good reason. They call themselves Arvanites, thus they are Arvanites and not Albanians. If you want to interprete the term Arvanites as "Albanians" you can do it, but it remains an interpretation (a political at that) and its not anymore of scientific nature. Its an unneccessary politicization if you ask me.
lol. The Greeks have been "Ellines" since antiquity, this has never changed. The Byzantine era was the one that created an artificial Roman idenitity it was not vice versa.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 9:37:25 GMT -5
Podgoricanin
You're not surprised. You just act that way.
And if you have family that understands Albanian "very well", and they supposedly translated the documentary for you, then why do you come up with stupid remarks like "you base all your argument around hair-styles" when you deep down knew that the 'perche' thing was used to show the Suliot resemblance with the Malsors. Their Albanian identity on the other hand is made obvious in the Greek documentary.
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