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Post by manijak on Jun 9, 2009 15:29:02 GMT -5
i didn't quiet understand this part..can u tell me more about Janissaries? Some people say they forced christians to become a part of them?
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Post by vinjak on Jun 9, 2009 18:04:30 GMT -5
a) did they force people to convert?
No they levied huge taxes on the ones who did not convert.
b) generally, how did they treat people?
They demanded complete surrender and compliance if you did, you were left in peace if you did not you were persecuted,enslaved,killed etc
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 9, 2009 18:08:51 GMT -5
Like I said, the imposition and weight of taxes varied greatly with a given people and their local rulers. Certain Pashas were more cruel than others and certain ones more open than others. Some Pashas were intermarried with local Christian families and could be expected to be quite lenient towards them.
Also, Ottomans could also support local peasants against their landlords. A Christian peasant could complain to someone if the local rulers were being brutal. There are numerous cases of this. In fact, as a local ruler, there was a heavy responsibility placed on the Pashas, Beys and Agas to take care of the locals and to look after them. They could grant protections and even privileges, as well as remove them.
Also note, Christians in the Ottoman Empire did not necessarily participate in the army (outside of mercenary service, in which they were well paid) and thus the higher taxes was a compensation for this fact. Of course this also left them at the mercy of Ottoman overlords and military troops (nobody said it was a fair system).
It varied greatly.
Also, note one thing, it has been proven that during the first century of the Ottoman Empire, we have a large list of Agas and Beys who were of Christian birth and passed their lands on to those of Christian birth as well. We also hear of Christian Timars (Equestrian order who were granted land after military service). It is through time that many of these families willfully converted to Islam in the 15th, 16th and 17th century.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 9, 2009 18:59:24 GMT -5
Basically the Bosnians sold out and mostly adopted this new religion in favour of the one they clearly did not believe in. Only in your mind does adopting a new religion mean being more linked to the previous one. I won't start on ethnicity, as I said all reports speak of people not having enough faith so clearly they hadn't such an amazing faith. If you could please provide these documents I'd be most happy. Anyone becoming a muslim had it's good and bad new duties/privileges. One of the most harsh duties being fighting for the Empire whenever it was needed, and with Bosnia being the frontier of it, a life of war was what awaited many muslims. As a matter of fact the most did, when Christians retook those land theiy christianized those who remained. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissariesen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev%C5%9FirmeThe devshirme meant taking one christian boy out of some for every rural village... I'll write you the exact number tomorrow, I'm too tired now to search it in a book. Anyways after 1568 the devshirme was barely ever used. Bosniaks and Albanians and another people I don't remember the name, were the only muslims who willingly wanted their kids into the devshirme. It's just because of a different p.o.v. , who became a janissary aquired a new status, and could easily go up in the ranks of the Empire.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jun 9, 2009 19:09:54 GMT -5
Clearly some didn't have faith so how can you change and believe fully in the next one lol read my post above. Why convert if you don't have faith and spirit in a religion you were born into to then convert to ANY OTHER RELIGION godamit!!! but the Bartolovics from Bosna who migrated to Slavonija in the 16th CENTURY clearly did have faith and we remain Catholics to this day! :-)
About the migrations, read any book NOT written by Croats or Bosnjaks and there is your proof; so don't play dumb.
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Post by srbobran on Jun 9, 2009 21:40:06 GMT -5
The Ottomans actually weren't bad in the early years after the conquest (which in itself was brutal) up to about the 1600's when the Ottoman empire began to collapse and shit hit the fan. In the early, many Christians willingly fought for the Ottoman Empire and were granted concessions. However, Ottoman rule became unbearable in the 17th Century and that's when we started to revolt en masse.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 10, 2009 4:28:09 GMT -5
LOL what a twisted logic I can't believe this... It's because the previous religion doesn't spiritually satisfy people that people convert.
Plus don't you always say how you are not catholic?
It's because I read those books that I made my conclusions.
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Post by manijak on Jun 10, 2009 6:32:58 GMT -5
lol illyria..so much hypocrisy.
I'm sure you are not a religious person but you choose to take pride in the fact that your ancestors kept their religion. Yet I know you love your country and ethnicity,(thats why u are here) and it was that which your ancestors left and sold-out by moving to a new place for a better life.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jun 10, 2009 11:37:01 GMT -5
ohhhhhhhhhh faz i manijak, vi znate o cemu ja pricam; opet niste glupi. Clearly my ancestors didn't want to sell out. I do not practice my religion in any way; however I am at awe as to how anyone regarless of ethnicity or religion in our region werea able to keep their faith and traditions going for hundreds of years; under different regimes and different migrations. Again it's a selfless act. It had very little to do with spirituality which is why the Bosnjaks converted, however those who remained true to their faith kept it because it was shape up or ship out; which is what many did to keep true to themselves.
manijak pa onda ovijek su prodali sebe eh? od bosne do hrvatske, par puta...onda kod kengure...smijesan si :-)
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 10, 2009 18:18:14 GMT -5
No I clearly don't know what you are talking about, because your talks about purity are non-sense given that Croats too sold out their old pagan religions for a new one and many nowadays Croats didn't know what that term was before a hundred years, that's why it is laughable at best. I'm not the one in denial here. 10 bucks to anyone who understood this. "manijak so than always they sold themselves eh? from Bosnia to Croatia, two times... than in cangaroos... you are funny"
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jun 11, 2009 3:55:21 GMT -5
You really are asking for it, I was never in denial of anything. You just can't admit it and have to reneg what I say but picking at the oppoising team which is us and making banal excuses. Because you don't have a better case to put forward. Howver, how am I suprised?
My other quote, was then "to/beside the kangaroos" kod kengure...znas kako ides kod muje..you can go to his hiouse or beside him :-)
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 11, 2009 4:50:50 GMT -5
If you didn't start with the usual "I know it best what others say is not true because I say so" I'd think someone else was sitting instead of you on the pc. Because unconsciously you too know I'm right
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jun 11, 2009 5:06:32 GMT -5
Oh I am very concious right now sitting toastely in my bed with the heater on; however I think you are not because you have no point to make about the thread and my response, you start on somethingelse in true Bosnian style. Why can't I ever meet a normal non self-defeating, non-"victim" Bosnian in this world who actually has a brain?
btw I derseve a smite just for my shyte spelling earlier. :-)
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Denis
New Member
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Post by Denis on Jun 14, 2009 0:39:24 GMT -5
To answer your questions with the best of my ability I am only gonna use sources I got from "Bosnia a short history" and a book I have in Bosnian about Bosniak History.
Concerning forceful conversions (ie:jannisaries) it went like this:
There was no defacto "FORCEFUL" conversions but you can say that christian boys taken to the Jannisaries were converted.
But the Turks didn't take every kid there. Going to the Jannisaries during that time was like going to Harvard. The Ottoman empire had the best schooling in the world at the time, they were the most organized and hygenic empire in the world. Considering the fact that Gnostics(Bogumils) were persecuted by the Catholic church prior to the ottomans and at war with the Great Serbian Tsar Dusan they really had no big connections to their faith. So mothers would send their kids of to a better future, considering the fact that Bosnia in the Middle ages was in a state of poverty and most people were poor villagers. Going to the Jannisaries could give you a high ranking government spot (Vizier, soldier, etc). So women would give their boys away to the Jannisary life. Now an example of an even BIGGER country turning to Islam is Indonesia. Indonesia is currently one of the (if not) the most populated muslim country. Now, did a huge fleet of Muslim ships invade Indonesia and conquer it? I don't think so, you see, the natives asked the few merchants who showed great character and islamic jurisprudence about their religion, probably because of the merchants honesty and behavior to them. And slowly people became muslim.
2. Now, how did the ottomans treat people? Let's understand the time, there were no Geneva conventions at the time and no real opposition that wasn't demolished. A lot of Islamophobes mention the Jizya tax that non-muslims were forced to pay. But what they dont know is that the Jizya tax was extremely low (2.5% of income tax) and a bonus was that they were protected by the Muslim country and were exempt from the army. And the Muslims are OBLIGATORY to give Zakat (Charity) and its OBLIGATORY for a group of muslims to defend their cities/towns. anyway, so it's not like they got it easier.
But on a local level, I'm not 100% sure on this but how we look at History the Serbs were some of the first People in Bosnia and they stayed there to this day. And if we look at population changes through history, a lot of Serb Growth in Population occured. I don't think an opressive government can make Population growths instead of decreses. Also, we can see beautiful ancient Orthodox and Catholic Churches in Bosnia. Such as the ones in South Bosnia (trebinje) and the very important Cathedral in Sarajevo.
Are the Ottomans hands free? Probably not, but let's not exagerrate what we don't have great proof for.
Thanks & Cheers ~Denis.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 17, 2009 17:30:53 GMT -5
I disagree with you Manijak (does your name mean maniac or manyak in Turkish?)
The Ottomans were the longest and most successful empire of its time.
They ruled from 1289 thru 1830's that's 600 years ! To say that b/c most people remained Christian is b/c they were not sucessful is the most illogical statement you can come up with.
They were tolerant of other people = fact.
For other's Serbs who are saying they levied taxes, they taxed them b/c they didn't serve in the army. All Muslims served in the army. And it wasn't a high tax, it was 2%.
Muslims had to give 2.5% of their income to charities as part of their alms -giving to charities.
and lastly, just because people convert to Islam, Christians have a problem with that. And what were you before you were Christian, weren't you a pagan? So why do you have an issue if someone becomes Muslim?
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 17, 2009 17:34:21 GMT -5
The fact that most people remained Christian shows the Ottomans respected other people's religions.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 17, 2009 17:38:35 GMT -5
correction my post was to Illyria
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 17, 2009 17:39:19 GMT -5
100% agree with you Denis
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Post by aaayyy on Jun 17, 2009 17:41:47 GMT -5
Why did Europe make such effort to defend itself from Ottomans if they were so good? I guess Europeans should have tried to join glorious Ottoman Empire the same way as now a lot of countries try to join EU.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 17, 2009 17:46:57 GMT -5
Because they did not want to be conquered of course
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