|
Post by kartadolofonos on Aug 28, 2009 2:44:35 GMT -5
Albanian Prime Minister Berisha noting the intention to «change the history», Berisha want to change the Greek place names in Southern Albania Northern Epirus » Athens strong reaction ,unleashes attack on Albanian P.M. Sali Berisha to statements to be expected to change the Greek names in the regions of South Albania. Greece sends a Warning message to Albania, that it will takes measures against Albania such a move it will certainly not only affect the Greek-Albanian relations but happen to conflict Albania with Greece and also to conflict Albania with the human rights of the Greek minority who living in these areas.The change of Greek place names is the same as that made by the time of Hoxha's dictatorship, when changed the names of the towns and villages. In Ioannina many people in Solidarity for the Greek minority Protest on the Street.
|
|
|
Post by L0gjICK on Aug 28, 2009 7:13:21 GMT -5
Link?
I've never even heard of a proposal to change these names, and if Albania does do it, good for them. Our neighbors have done the same (i.e. FYROM with Bitola or the Greeks changing Arvanites villages.)
|
|
|
Post by chalkedon on Aug 28, 2009 7:15:55 GMT -5
Greeks were changing already changed names from foreign occupiers. I dont think thats a problem do you ? Do you also deny a Greek presensce in Epirus ? I mean albanian and greek are practically cousins for God sakes.. Both been living there til the beginning of time.
|
|
|
Post by L0gjICK on Aug 28, 2009 7:24:26 GMT -5
First off, if we're "cousins" that means you shouldn't be supporting the Inidigenous Albanians in Kosova and not the new comers . Secondly do you consider the Arvanites "foreign occupiers?" Obviously the changing of the names of these places was to destroy the culture of the Arvanites in Greece and it had less to do with the "foreign occupiers." Our neighbors have been changing their city names while Albania is stupid enough to hold on to them. Change all foreign names in the Country!
|
|
|
Post by chalkedon on Aug 28, 2009 7:37:55 GMT -5
no, i dont consider arvanites occupiers at all. Hell, if they wanted to keep the original name..im sure noboy would of had a problem with it. The only problem with you guys is that you refuse to believe they want to be a part of hellenism. Come over and ask them yourself.
We still have mountains that have foreign names and towns. Metsovo, Konitsa, Kaimatsaln to name a few...nobody cares...Its old news.
|
|
|
Post by L0gjICK on Aug 28, 2009 8:07:16 GMT -5
Honestly Chalkedon the article is BS. Berisha is as pro-Greek as an Albanian politician can get. The names will stay unfortunately.
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Aug 28, 2009 8:40:05 GMT -5
Greece is in no position to tell us what to do with our own place-names for two reasons; Albania is a sovereign country and can decide the names of the towns and villages within its borders; Greece itself changed the names of Albanian and other non-Greek toponyms, and therefore this "warning" is a pathetic display of hypocrisy from Greece's side.
Frankly, the more Greeks and Slavs complain over this name-changing issue, the more I support it.
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Aug 28, 2009 8:43:45 GMT -5
Well, I haven't heard of this proposition, but I doubt Berisha aims to change ALL foreign names. Most likely, it is smaller prefectures and village names that will have their names changed, much like Slav 'Pustec' near Prespa which was changed to 'Liqenas' ... larger towns, like Pogradec, were left alone.
PS "Cool" picture KARta, I'm sure Greece will invade a fellow Nato member for the sake of such a trivial issue. I thought FYROM was an enough source of nausea for you, but now you will dictate how all of your neighbours name themselves or their towns and villages? LOL.
|
|
|
Post by chalkedon on Aug 28, 2009 8:46:10 GMT -5
dont take too personal Donnie...There is some chestbeating involved in this as always. Hell, we are in the balkans.
But to be quite honest, there is some legal concerns here. Albeit Albania is soverign and has every right to do what it pleases. Im with you on that 100%. But there is also a North Epirus agreement signed and agreed upon in the past and agreements should be respected. Im not happy with the lausanne agreement but it is what it is...
Besides, it always good to keep good relations between the countries. No need to fix what isnt broken..
|
|
|
Post by chalkedon on Aug 28, 2009 8:49:01 GMT -5
Well, I haven't heard of this proposition, but I doubt Berisha aims to change ALL foreign names. Most likely, it is smaller prefectures and village names that will have their names changed, much like Slav 'Pustec' near Prespa which was changed to 'Liqenas' ... larger towns, like Pogradec, were left alone. PS "Cool" picture KARta, I'm sure Greece will invade a fellow Nato member for the sake of such a trivial issue. I thought FYROM was an enough source of nausea for you, but now you will dictate how all of your neighbours name themselves or their towns and villages? LOL. we have a lot of foreign names...in Epirus, Macedonia and Thrace. I dont think ppl in Greece really think its foreign after so many years of it in use. It doesnt change the character of the place. I dont think Greeks really care to be honest. Although I would like to clean up some names on a personal level.. I think we changed a lot of turkish names, but kept the slav, arvanite ones in place.
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Aug 28, 2009 9:01:05 GMT -5
This is as I said trivial, and outside this forum, I haven't heard of Berisha attempting to change any Greek toponyms. But it still annoys me when certain people lack any sense of decency and display such a level of hypocrisy. Infact, Albania in this regard has shown itself far more liberal towards its minorities and their minority rights & historical legacy than its more 'democratic' neighbour. We always speak of Hoxha's dictatorship, yet while democratic Greece declared itself ethnically homogenous, communist Albania respected the rights of its Hellenic minority and granted it education in the native tongue.
Beside the above mentioned example of Pustec which became Liqenas, I haven't heard of any name-changing in Albania, while there are many equivalents in former Yugoslavia and Greece. So why shouldn't we be able to do the same? You speak of the "North Epirus agreement" -- this "agreement" which was an external imposition is not in effect and holds no weight. You should think of better arguments of why we shouldn't change foreign toponymy and invent our own ones, much like yourself.
Personally, I have heard far better arguments than the ones Greek propose from my own compatriots, some of which have taken me by surprise by the level of tolerance and moderation among some of my bretheren ... like "we shouldn't emulate the xenophobic policies of our neighbours because then we are no better ourselves" which is the only reason why I've hesitated in this issue. Afterall, toponymy reflects history, and to change it is to deny a part of history, much like Greece has done, a case of self-consciousness and obsession with purity ever since Fallmerayer dared to propose that you're a conglomerate of nations. But the insistance and threats by Greeks and Slavs makes me consider these name changes ... if I support it, it will be much out of spite.
|
|
|
Post by chalkedon on Aug 28, 2009 9:08:36 GMT -5
Like i said before, You guys can do whatever you want. Im not the type of person to get involved in a dispute like this. I like you guys way more than any fyromian.
If it makes you feel better change the whole damn place. You are right...it is pretty trivial. Just make the greeks there feel comforatable..its good for relations and if relations is good its good for business, trade, cultural exchange...ect.
Win Win all around...thats my take on it..
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Aug 28, 2009 9:17:05 GMT -5
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Aug 28, 2009 9:19:21 GMT -5
Greeks have been comfortable even during the days of Hoxha... let alone now, when they even have political representation. Just recently I heard of PBDNJ requests to join Berisha's government coalition. So much for Berisha trying to eradicate the Greek minority, or the minoritars fearing him as some uncompromising nationalist.
So, in this regard, there's no ground for a deterioration of relations. The toponym issue is a different matter. I haven't even heard of this proposition, so I am questioning Karta's sourceless "article". Finally, if this process goes through, I believe it needs to be done in cooperation with locals, i.e. if the locals in a village do not want to change their village name, then it shouldn't be changed. So if Greek locals in Dropull dont want their village name changed, it shouldn't be changed. But if Albanians living in a village with a Greek name want to change the name, I say "go for it" !
Because everyone assumed it was true. But so far, I haven't heard anything from Berisha's mouth concerning this issue -- the only sources claiming it were Greeks. I think maybe Topi proposed something similiar in the Korca district (where Liqenas is), but that doesn't affect you as the foreign toponyms are almost all Slav.
|
|
|
Post by L0gjICK on Aug 28, 2009 9:26:17 GMT -5
Again, I would be glad to hear if this were true, but the article is completely made up. BTW, I love the picture of the tank LOL. What are Greeks going to do? Invade Albania and put up Greek signs in the South. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Aug 28, 2009 9:28:52 GMT -5
Personally we are wasting our energy on these kinds of issues because imo in thirty years or so there isn't gonna be any borders based on the "new world order" that's where we're heading...
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 28, 2009 11:19:07 GMT -5
Sounds like a blogger's post. I cant find any confirmation for the story. Im guessing its Stavri Marko, who has a habit of posting "news" as he interprets it... or want to interpret it.
|
|
Aris
Amicus
Greek Troll
Posts: 832
|
Post by Aris on Aug 28, 2009 16:12:15 GMT -5
Greeks were changing already changed names from foreign occupiers. I dont think thats a problem do you ? Do you also deny a Greek presensce in Epirus ? I mean albanian and greek are practically cousins for God sakes.. Both been living there til the beginning of time. ;D ;D Είμαστε ξαδέλφια ? Το πιο ηλίθιο πράγμα που έχω ακούσει ποτέ στη ζωή μου ! Σας μισώ, εσείς μας μισούν ! Αυτό είναι όλο, αυτή είναι η αλήθεια !
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 28, 2009 16:25:45 GMT -5
The fact is any Greek who gets angry at the Albanian placename changes which will occur in the country needs to look in their own backyard. Most toponym changes are not those "changed by the ottomans", they were natural evolutions through the middle ages and into the modern era from various external and internal factors. These that didnt fit the criteria were changed to a "more appropriate" katharevousa type even if there was no ancient placename that has survived in text from that area.
Just like how the Serbs in Kosova built churches where they "thought" they once stood, you guys changed it arbitrarily to what you believed would be the ancient form.
We are changing it to something more suitable for our own country and it wont be like Hoxha, because Hoxha changed placenames to fit his socialist tendency (such as changing village names to "Stalini" or "Lenini" or "deshmora").
Dont like it? Tough, since if that is what the people really want, and Topi has shown open support for it, then Berisha will play to their feelings if it means more support.
The party has collapsed within itself. As small as it was before, it has become even more pathetic. I wonder if it will even survive. Stavri put the nail in its coffin in the last article I read from him. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Aug 28, 2009 20:52:07 GMT -5
Draft Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, U.N. Doc. E/CN.4/Sub.2/1994/2/Add.1 (1994).
Article 7
Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right not to be subjected to ethnocide and cultural genocide, including prevention of and redress for:
(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;
(c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;
(d) Any form of assimilation or integration by other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;
(e) Any form of propaganda directed against them.
Article 8
Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right to maintain and develop their distinct identities and characteristics, including the right to identify themselves as indigenous and to be recognized as such.
|
|