donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 22, 2009 8:40:07 GMT -5
Te cilesuara si me te bukurat te letersise sone nga Cabej i cili gjithashtu e ka transliteruar tekstin me shkronja tona;
Të gëzonenë shkretëtitë , e pullja të lëshonjë ente porsi drandofillja. Tue frujtuom të gëzonetë, tue gëzuom ndë të madh gazmend e ndë kankë: të madhtë e Libanit anshtë dhanë atyne e të bardhëtë e malit Karmeljesë e fushësë Saronit. Atë kanë me pâm të madhtë e Tinëzot e të bardhëtë e Tinëzot. Konfortoni ju duortë e pâfuqi, e forcon ju glunjëtë votë n fi. E thoni atyne qi janë zemërëkëmbyem; Konfortoni, e gjâ mos droni: se hynje yj Zot të vinjë tue vendekuom e tue kthyem, e juve t'u shelbojnë. Ashtu atëherë tê u çilenë syte d verbênet, e veshêtê e t shurdhtënet të ngilenê. E atêherê të këcenjë i shkjepëni porsi dreni, e gluha a p âgojë t apë lavdë Tinëzot; përse nçelnë ujë atë ndë shkretëtit, e ujënatë e mëdhâ mbë visêt të panierëz.
Meshari, Isaia, XXXII, 35,1-6, 1555
Hinje se dimëni shkoi, e shiu vote. E hinje se luletë zunë me u dukunë përmbi dhêt, e hera me kiem u afëruo; e zani i turtullit u gjegj ndë dhêt tanë; fiku zû me lëshuom të tîtë, e rdhitë zunë me bâm grestënë, e lëshuanë erënë e endet tyne. Ngreu e eja, e dashuna eme, e e bukura eme, uite ti. Pollumbi em, ndë plasët të gurit nde e nfshehunat të gjirdhevet, dëftomë të klenëtë tat; banmë u ty të të gjegjem zanë tand; përse zani uit anshtë i amblë, e të panëtë tat anshtë të dëshëruom.
Kënga e këngëvet 2, 11-14
Nxjerrë nga libri i E. Cabejt Studime gjuhësore, VI, 1977.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 22, 2009 10:11:36 GMT -5
Per t'u vene re eshte gjuha e Buzukut qe ka mjaft arkaizma, perfshire rasen vendore (locative case) e cila eshte e pranishme vetem ne disa dialekte sot. Ketu kemi edhe pranine e te gjitha diftongjeve shqipe qe me pas u dialektizuan, pra ua, ue, uo etj. Gjithashtu ka mjaft fjale te vjetra qe nuk jane me ne perdorim ... gjithashtu disa mbaresa te shumesit qe s'di a jane me ne perdorim, per shembull "gardh" ne njejes dhe "gjirdhe" ne shumes.
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Post by EriTopSheqeri on Oct 22, 2009 12:36:16 GMT -5
450 vjet i vjeter dhe jo shume i veshtire per tu kuptuar.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 22, 2009 13:05:12 GMT -5
I understand "drandofillja"...its closer to the original.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 22, 2009 13:12:45 GMT -5
What dialect is this, Tosk or Gek, or they weren't that different then?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 22, 2009 14:16:16 GMT -5
450 vjet i vjeter dhe jo shume i veshtire per tu kuptuar. E lehtesuar padyshim edhe nga transliterimi i Cabejt. Por e vertet eshte, edhe pas gadi pese shekuj, gjuha eshte e kuptueshme. This is Geg, and more specifically, the dialect of the western shores of Lake Shkoder (territories that today are within Montenegro's borders). The split between these two major dialects happened way before this, as evident in the rhotacism of Tosk ('n' becomes 'r'). This rhotacism has affected ancient Greek and Latin loan words, like drapër from drapanon ('sickle') from Greek or rërë from arena ('sand') from Latin. This phenomenon has not included Slavic loan words, suggesting the split between Geg and Tosk must have emerged before the Slavs came to the Balkans, and that the process of rhotacism atleast had already finished by the time Slavs first appeared in our lands.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Oct 22, 2009 14:21:48 GMT -5
interesting .....vetem pezit perqind kuptoj ....
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Oct 22, 2009 16:24:49 GMT -5
Changes in speech patterns can happen within a community over short periods of time... It doesn't really suggest who was here first ... or last... people can easily adapt to surroundings and language.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 22, 2009 16:54:46 GMT -5
Changes in speech patterns can happen within a community over short periods of time... It doesn't really suggest who was here first ... or last... people can easily adapt to surroundings and language. Are you refering to the rhotacism process in Tosk? Your explanation still doesn't explain how this process is entirely restricted to native words on one hand, and Ancient Greek & Latin loan words on the other, alone. In other words, the rhotacism process did not include Slavic, Turkish or modern Greek/Italian loan words, they did not undergo rhotacism. The conclusion is a simple one which not even you can deny; ancient Greek and Latin loan words entered our language very early, and because the rhotacism process only affected loan words from those languages, it means this process occured early on ... and had been finalized by the time we came into contact with the Slavs. How you will manage come around this and say we were in contact with Romans and ancient Greeks in the steppes with our fellow Turkish brothers, doesnt interest me ... this is linguistics, and the pattern is clear. Language is evidence in itself. Also interesting is the toponym of Vlorë, ancient Aulon. This city was also affected by the rhotacism process, meaning we Central Asian Turks must've been in contact with this porte before the Slavs came. Right Kanaris?
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 22, 2009 17:03:02 GMT -5
We can't know when the word drapano(n) entered in albanian as drapër, it could have borrowed and "rhotacized" in late medieval period, because this word is used continuously.
What do you mean with the Avlon-Vlore thing?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 22, 2009 17:19:40 GMT -5
The word drapër comes from Ancient Greek. Had it entered in the late medieval period, it wouldn't have undergone rhotacism, because the process wasn't ongoing. Otherwise we would have Slavic loan words affected by rhotacism as well. We don't. As simple as that.
This is not me speaking, linguists seem rather confident this is an Ancient Greek loan word. Try explaining that to Kanaris.
Well, according to Kanaris, we came in the 1200s. Suppose this is true. How come the town of Vlorë underwent rhotacism? By this time, the 1200s, the process of rhotacism had been finalized a long time ago, and other peoples would've lived in Vlorë with their own phonetically adjusted versions of the name Aulon. Instead we see a rather consistent pattern in agreement with the phonetic rules of our language; this includes the elimination of the first vowel, seen elsewhere as well (like 'mik' from Latin 'amicus').
This means we must have been in contact with this city since atleast before the dawn of Slavs in the Balkans. Either that or we established some (telepathic) contact with the town from the Steppes of Central Asia ... Kanaris will probably bet on the latter.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 22, 2009 18:09:06 GMT -5
Why don't Tosks call Kolonja Kolorja? It seems latin toponym.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 22, 2009 18:22:57 GMT -5
Why don't Tosks call Kolonja Kolorja? It seems latin toponym. I don't know, but there are two possible explanations. 1) Rhotacism did affect many words, but obviously not all 'n's turned into 'r's, and this might be such an exception. 2) Kolonje doesn't correspond to the phonetic rules of our language, in which case we're dealing with an intermediary between the original Latin form and the time we adopted it. Which it is I don't know as I am not aware on the linguists' position vis-á-vis the region Kolonje's name. Vlora however is crystal clear.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Oct 22, 2009 20:52:15 GMT -5
I find it odd that it happened with a peoples that were holed up in the mountains for 1200 years.. (according to you)who never had a contact with anyone else.. to develop peculiar ways of pronouncing the "R's or anything else..
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 23, 2009 11:06:49 GMT -5
I find it odd that it happened with a peoples that were holed up in the mountains for 1200 years.. (according to you)who never had a contact with anyone else.. to develop peculiar ways of pronouncing the "R's or anything else.. Your reply above doesn't make much sense, but I will try answering it. Rhotacism isn't "peculiar ways of pronouncing the Rs" -- it is a sound shift, it doesn't always involve Rs. In this case it does though, and the shift is internal, independent of foreign influences. It's got nothing to do with Latin or Greek influence. What you probably meant to say is, how is it possible that "we" borrowed Ancient Greek and Latin terms if we were an isolated mountain population? Well, in the case of Ancient Greek loan words, some of these loans probably predate Roman conquest and are of Doric origin. This means either we got them from Northwestern Greeks, or from some Doric colony along the Adriatic. This would have been a period of less isolation. Coincidentally, alot of our Doric loan words correspond with words in Southern Italian dialects, where there were also Greek colonies, e.g. Tarentum. I can give you examples if you like. With the Romans, I said that mainstream theories suggest we were a secluded, isolated mountain population whose profession and location helped preserve our language. This doesn't mean there were no contacts at all with Romans. It was still a Roman province and complete isolation was impossible, since that would mean political independence which Romans wouldn't have accepted. Some level of interaction was inevitable, through trade for example, as shepherd products were sought after (cheese was an important part of Roman diet, together with bread). There's an interesting Albanian word, kuvend, which is important in this regard. It means 'gathering' and in old times, refered to highland councils where warriors would meet to make coordinated decisions. Today it also means parliament. It is a Latin loan word ( conventum), which might suggest such councils were required by Roman administrators as a mean to secure the nomads' loyalty and obedience. There was certainly a need for it as locals weren't always so peaceful. Finally, alot of the contact was not necessarely with Romans, but with Romanized locals, later known as Vlachs, from whom we also get alot of the Latin loan words, though not all.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 23, 2009 12:19:37 GMT -5
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 23, 2009 12:50:20 GMT -5
The word is generally treated as a Latin loanword, not Greek. Greek influence on Albanian is very small in comparison to Latin, and this word probably entered directly as well. The first part "con" was accordingly changed to "ku", from conventum to kuvend, just like kufi from confines (border).
But even if you're right, the "kuvend" theory is just that, a theory. The other things stand. We borrowed heavily from Latin because there was a contact, as no population within the Roman Empire remained ocmpletely isolated. These contacts could've happened in different ways, like trade etc. They were probably exempted from military service, I am guessing, because this was an efficient way of Romanizing locals, as soldiers would learn Latin and probably continue to speak it as it integrated them with the rest of the empire. The Romanians are a good example of this; their word for old, batran, comes from veteranus, suggesting that military duty played a role in their Roamnization.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 23, 2009 13:08:18 GMT -5
I don't doubt that Albanians ancestors were living somewhere within the Roman Balkans. The many latin loanwords show this.
But their exact position, their relation with the ancient recorded people who lived in the area( i mean if they were a mix of illyrothracian tribes, or thracians, illyrians, celts-illyrians etc), their relation with Romanians' ancestors etc aren't clear.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 23, 2009 13:54:10 GMT -5
I don't doubt that Albanians ancestors were living somewhere within the Roman Balkans. The many latin loanwords show this. But their exact position, their relation with the ancient recorded people who lived in the area( i mean if they were a mix of illyrothracian tribes, or thracians, illyrians, celts-illyrians etc), their relation with Romanians' ancestors etc aren't clear. That's true, but even here, language gives alot of clues. The main reason I don't believe in the Thracian theory of our origins, is twofold. On one hand, it's the toponyms. Thracian ones are very often combinations, while Illyrian placenames are singles, In Thrace, for instance, we have Bessapara. Linguists believe it means 'ford of the Bessi', the Bessi being a Thracian tribe. This is a construction allowed in most European languages. Not in ours though, where it would be Para e Bessëve, possibly Parabessa, never Bessapara. It's a very fundamental rule of our language making it difficult to believe that Thracian is our ancestor. Secondly, the last Thracian tribe believed to have spoken a form of ancient (unromanized) Thracian were the Bessi, who were converted to Christianity early on. Nicetas even translated the holy scriptures from Latin to Bessan. If there is one thing which has proven efficient in preserving endangered/small languages, it's a national church using the indigenous language in liturgy (see Coptic). But in Albanian, most of the religious terminology pertaining to Christianity is Latin borrowed. This is odd, since the very idea of translation is the concept of translating foreign terms with your own equivalents. Most pagan peoples had words for 'soul', 'sin', 'prayer'. It is very obvious that our Christianity was introduced by Latin speakers in spoken form, not translated into the language of our ancestors, as opposed to Bessan. This is evident in the loanwords themselves. The word for 'holy trinity', which is Shëndertat, bears a final accent on the last syllable as well as a final 't'. This means it comes from the Latin accusative sanctam trinitatem, not the nominative sancta trinitas. This is because these words were heard over and over again, orally. They heard them much more often as the object in a sentence rather than as the subject ... had our old language lacked religious terms and had it been in need of filling the gaps with Latin loans, they would have adopted the nominative forms. They didn't, because people heard Latin, they didn't adopt it in written form. This is demonstrated with other words as well, not just in our language, but also the Romance languages; French 'mont' comes from montem, not from mons. Spanish 'ciudad' comes from civitatem, not civitas. It is obvious we don't descend from the Bessi, and they were essentially the last Thracians to speak some indigenous unromanized dialect of Thracian. Atleast on record. This is why I believe in the Illyrian theory, it's to date the strongest and most convincing.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 23, 2009 14:17:28 GMT -5
The ecclesiastical terms could have been borrowed lately, maybe because Albanians' ansestors were converted to christianity lately(not impossible at all considering that even the Maniates in the southern edge of Greece were pagans until 9th cent.). I don't understand how exactly you can extract conclusions using this. And at least the southern Albanians must had greek terms instead of latin in meanings like sin, soul etc... Konstantinoupolis Church always had under its power metropoleis like Dyrrachion, Aulona etc.
I believe that in the area between Aoos-Vjosa to Deavolis-Devol the population was a mix of local semi-hellenized, semi latinized people, with an influx of Slavs from the 7th century and after, until the 12-13th century when for various reasons the non nomadic people in the area of Arvanon, who kept themselves isolated from the shores and the byzantine influence started to expand themselves southwards.
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