aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Mar 4, 2010 18:23:11 GMT -5
US vote attacks Turkey 'genocide' A US Congress panel describes the World War I killing of Armenians in Turkey as genocide, prompting Turkish outrage. news.bbc.co.uk/
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 4, 2010 19:29:05 GMT -5
and the US calls the war crime Srebrenica a genocide. aayy, the USA unilaterally recognised serbia's kosovo region, then the Turks recognised it and now the Turkish government is lobbying the Arab world to help USA succed in her victory of a recognition count. Do you see aayy, the USA has stabbed the Turkish government in back by recognising the Armenian Genocide. Now lets see if other nations will follow USA's recognition of this.
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Post by thracian08 on Mar 4, 2010 19:51:24 GMT -5
Kosovo is a separate issue.
I adhore the Armenians lobbiysts who tell lies about their own people. It was their own that killed the Turks, and Russians even documented it. Factually the Ottoman archives don't have any proof of Genocide that they claim. Both Armenians and Turks got killed on both sides and more Turks got killed, so how can that be a genocide? It doesn't make sense.
OF couse USA foreign policy always uses people to their benefit. That's why in a poll of Muslim countries, Turks hated the USA the most (suprising that it's not the Arabs who suffered much aka. Iraqis and also the Palestinians from the pro-Israeli stance) b/c of feeding the PKK.
Ultimately I think that the USA & Armenians will lose big time. Turkey is a democratic, advanced country, and doesn't need the US. It has already has good relationships with Europe, Russia and Iran. USA, b/c it has no allies in the Middle east which it strongly needs, and Armenia b/c it is a landlocked country with no trade and not developed and will remain in poverty.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 4, 2010 20:22:59 GMT -5
my message thracian is this: what goes round comes round!. The Turkish government supports serbia's kosovo region to be independant and lobbies heavily to help the US get her recognitions, while the USA recognises the Armenian genocide inexchange, and maybe, getting an extra present from the Armenian lobby. Its seems weird that they support the USA when it suits them, with regards to serbia's kosovo and the Armenian Genocide. Very hypocritical. Do you really think thracian the USA doesn't have allies or subjects whom they influence with $$$$?.....everybody in world thinks Saudi Arabia is America's worse enemy, but really behind the scenes they are good friends . Just think outside the square for a second, the tactic that was used in Yugoslavia during WW1, WW2 and the successful destruction of it in the early 1990's couldn't be done to Iran or Turkey, using proxies like the Kurds of Turkey or the Azerbaijani's of Iran. Just recently a terrorist was caught in Iran that was financed by the US to commit terrorist activities in the country.
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Post by hellboy87 on Mar 4, 2010 20:23:33 GMT -5
Kosovo is a separate issue. I adhore the Armenians lobbiysts who tell lies about their own people. It was their own that killed the Turks, and Russians even documented it. Factually the Ottoman archives don't have any proof of Genocide that they claim. Both Armenians and Turks got killed on both sides and more Turks got killed, so how can that be a genocide? It doesn't make sense. OF couse USA foreign policy always uses people to their benefit. That's why in a poll of Muslim countries, Turks hated the USA the most (suprising that it's not the Arabs who suffered much aka. Iraqis and also the Palestinians from the pro-Israeli stance) b/c of feeding the PKK. Ultimately I think that the USA & Armenians will lose big time. Turkey is a democratic, advanced country, and doesn't need the US. It has already has good relationships with Europe, Russia and Iran. USA, b/c it has no allies in the Middle east which it strongly needs, and Armenia b/c it is a landlocked country with no trade and not developed and will remain in poverty. Yes,you ADHORE the Armenians! You French girl! Ottomans killed Armenians,Armenians killed Ottoman Muslims in self-defense and to fight for their independence.Instead of giving justice to the Armenians by granting them indepence,the ruling Ottomans barbarically got rid(genocide) of the Armenians from their ancestral lands for their own greed,megalomania and stupidity. You cant say Turkey is an advanced country when you have no freedom of speech and expression,where you can get killed for insulting Ataturk.Compared with European countries,Turkey is probably the most backward country.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 4, 2010 20:26:47 GMT -5
^ l don't know much behind the mechanics of the event, but 0.6mil to 1.5mil is not a little figure, if those numbers are right.
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Post by hellboy87 on Mar 4, 2010 20:55:10 GMT -5
I think so too.From what I've read,the lowest number for Armenians killed is 600,000 and the 1.5 million figure is the highest.
Many or most got killed.Many died as a result of the conflict.Some became "Turks"- the Crypto-Armenians.
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Mar 5, 2010 8:03:03 GMT -5
Turkish anger at US Armenian 'genocide' vote Armenian-Americans hold protest in Washington (file picture) Armenian-Americans have lobbied for official use of the word "genocide" Turkey has reacted angrily to a US congressional panel's resolution describing as genocide the killings of Armenians in World War I. PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan said his country had been accused of a crime it did not commit, adding the resolution would harm Turkish-US relations. Ankara has recalled its ambassador to Washington for consultations and says it is considering other responses. The White House had urged against the vote. Armenia welcomed the outcome. The government of Turkey, a key American ally and fellow Nato member, had lobbied hard for the US Congress not to vote on the issue. Turkey will not be responsible for the negative results that this event may lead to Turkish President Abdullah Gul The BBC's Jane O'Brien in Washington says Turkey must be hoping that, as with a similar resolution two years ago, the issue will not come to the floor of the House for a full vote. In 2007, it passed the committee stage, but was shelved after pressure from the George W Bush administration. Delegation The resolution was narrowly approved - by 23 votes to 22 - by the House Foreign Affairs Committee. It calls on President Barack Obama to ensure that US foreign policy reflects an understanding of the "genocide" and to label the World War I killings as such in his annual statement on the issue. ANALYSIS Jonathan Head Jonathan Head, BBC News, Ankara Turkey is not hiding its anger over the way the vote went in Washington. Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu pointedly demanded that the Obama administration make greater efforts and said Turkey would lobby hard to try to prevent the resolution from being approved by the full House. Ankara clearly expects stronger administration support from now on. It says it is still committed to normalising relations with Armenia - and that the US vote will not influence how it handles this process. The Turkish government is holding back ratification of the agreement signed by both countries last year because of what it believes is a re-interpretation of it by the Armenian constitutional court. Turkish President Abdullah Gul responded angrily to the committee's vote, saying it was "an injustice to history" to take such a decision with "political concerns in mind". "Turkey will not be responsible for the negative results that this event may lead to," he said. Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told a news conference in Ankara on Friday that Turkey was determined to press ahead with efforts to normalise relations with Armenia. However, he said the ratification by parliament of peace accords signed with Armenia last October was in jeopardy. A Turkish parliamentary delegation had gone to Washington to try to persuade committee members to reject the resolution. Turkey accepts that atrocities were committed but argues they were part of the war and that there was no systematic attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian people. The Armenian government welcomed the vote, calling it "an important step towards the prevention of crimes against humanity". 'Too important' US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had urged the House committee not to vote on Thursday on the grounds that it would damage reconciliation efforts between Turkey and Armenia, and said she hoped it would go no further. MASS KILLINGS OF ARMENIANS Kevin Connolly Hundreds of thousands of ethnic Armenians killed by Ottoman Turks in 1915-6 Many historians and the Armenian people believe the killings amount to genocide Turks and some historians deny they were orchestrated More than 20 countries regard the massacres as genocide Q&A: Armenian genocide dispute "We do not believe that the full Congress will or should act upon that resolution, and we have made that clear to all the parties involved," she said. During his campaign for the 2008 election, Mr Obama promised to brand the mass killings genocide. Mrs Clinton acknowledged his administration's change of opinion on the issue, saying circumstances had "changed in very significant ways". In October last year, Turkey and Armenia signed a historic accord normalising relations between them after a century of hostility. Armenia wants Turkey to recognise the killings as an act of genocide, but successive Turkish governments have refused to do so. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in 1915, when they were deported en masse from eastern Anatolia by the Ottoman Empire. They were killed by troops or died from starvation and disease. Armenians have campaigned for the killings to be recognised internationally as genocide - and more than 20 countries have done so. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8550928.stm
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Mar 5, 2010 8:48:51 GMT -5
In some way this can be seen as a punishment for Turkey's role in Kosovo. In same sense high justice prevails here. But I am speaking only about abstruct high justice, I don't think these two points are politically connected much, I mean Turkey's role in Kosovo and recognision of Armenian genocide.
thracian08,
I am absolutely sure that some Armenians killed some Turks that time. Still the number of killed Armenian civilians is too high.
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Mar 5, 2010 8:50:46 GMT -5
Ottoman authorities probably didn't record actions like that.
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 5, 2010 11:32:17 GMT -5
Well done. Time to deal with the crimes and genocides of your ancestors dear Turks.
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Post by thracian08 on Mar 5, 2010 13:32:03 GMT -5
first of all Novi, the reason Turkey recognizes Kosovo has nothing to do with USA. You should understand that Turks support the Albanians due to historical ties.
2nd, like I told you in my previous post, USA is not liked by Turks out of all the different Muslim ethnicies in the world.
And 2 Million Turks died in the war with the Armenians so Armenians should recognize the stuff they did, instead of trying to make up lies to get money just like the Jews.
You guys really mix up topics here. Why in the world would Turkey support Serbia?? What did Milosevich's regime do but kill innocent Muslims.
Kastor keep on writing your lies... there is no historical proof of anything that you write.
There is actually proof that the Armenians massively killed Turks who were civilians. Turks were fighting in the Balkans and the military was there.
Only much later did the Ottoman military come to eastern Turkey to fight against the Armenians.
There is NO factual proof that the Ottoman gov't wanted to annihilate the Armenians, therefore, you cannot prove that this occured.
Everything was written in the Ottoman archives.
"As a result of these months touring through the area occupied and devastated by the Russian Army and the Christian army of revenge accompanying them, during the spring and summer of 1916, I have no hesitation in saying that the the Turks would be able to make out as good a case against their enemies as that presented against the Turks. According to the almost universal testimony of the local inhabitants and eyewitnesses, Russians acting on the instigation and advice of Armenians who accompanied them murdered and butchered indiscriminately any Muslim member of the civil population who fell into their hands. A traveler through the Rowanduz and Nell districts would find widespread wholesale evidence of outrageous crimes are committed by Christians on Muslims."
Sam Weems, "Armenia — Secrets of a 'Christian' Terrorist State," 2002, pg. 36; footnote: Borian II, pg. 82
I am surprised that London should possess information which no one here is aware of and is unable to document. As a result, it has been impossible until now to determine exactly that Armenians have been massacred in any area. There is much talk about it but no one was able to give me certain and exact information. In particular the Armenian losses in Marash appear to be absolutely false. Apparently, the Armenians took part in the struggle of our troops in this city and had casualties like all the fighters. A serious study of the figures shows that these Armenian casualties do not exceed 1000.
Archives des Affaires Etrangeres de France, Vol 9, Folio 3; Millerand was the Minister of War of his nation until 1915, becoming President in 1920.
In 1895 and 1896 the Armenian revolutionary committees created such suspicion between the Armenians and the native population that it became impossible to implement any sort of reform in these districts. The Armenian priests paid no attention to religious education, but instead concentrated on spreading nationalist ideas, which were affixed to the walls of monasteries, and in place of performing their religious duties they concentrated on stirring Christian enmity against Muslims. The revolts that took place in many provinces of Turkey during 1895 and 1896 were caused neither by any great poverty among the Armenian villages nor because of Muslim attacks against them. In fact these villagers were considerably richer and more prosperous than their neighbors. Rather, the Armenian revolts came from three causes: 1. Their increasing maturity in political subjects; 2.The spread of ideas of nationality, liberation, and independence within the Armenian community; 3. Support of these ideas by the western governments, and their encouragement through the efforts of the Armenian priests."
General Mayewski was the Russian Consul-General in Bitlis and Van; from Statistique des Provinces de Van et de Bitlis, pp. 11-13, Petersburg, 1916
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Post by thracian08 on Mar 5, 2010 13:38:14 GMT -5
Armenians killing Turks:
"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
The Gochnag, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van. (Holdwater: this Internet quote needs to be verified. The date is wrong; the closest issues for the weekly are from May 22 and May 29. The origin evidently was a 1982 publication from Ankara's Institute of Foreign Policy, entitled "Ermeni Sorunu [Armenian Question], 9 soru 9 cevap," page 23. Guenter Lewy states on p. 98 of his 2005 "Disputed Genocide" book that 3,000 Muslims were left in Van.)
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."
Admiral Mark Bristol, Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
"The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death..."
Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146. "Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."
Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
"Since all the able Moslem men were in the army, it was easy for the Armenians to begin a horrible slaughter of the defenseless Moslem inhabitants in the area. They ... simply cleaned out the Moslem inhabitants in those areas. They performed gruesome deeds, of which I, as an eye witness honestly say that they were much worse than what Turks have been accused of as an Armenian atrocity."
General Bronsart von Schellendorf , "A Witness for Talat Pasha," Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
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Post by thracian08 on Mar 5, 2010 13:41:01 GMT -5
"There are 400.000 Armenians in the Caucasus, who escaped from the Ottoman State."
Hatisov, a later Armenian President, who had joined the Trabzon Conference (14 March-14 April 1918), in a message to Hüseyin Rauf. (Richard Hovannisian later updated this figure to 500,000.) In addition to other non-Ottoman lands many thousands of Armenians had found refuge in (e.g., Iran, Greece), it becomes plain to see all the Armenian men could not have been murdered in one magical stroke, as Armenian propaganda tells us. (Akdes, Nimel Kurat, Turkey and Russia, Ankara, 1990, p.471)
"The Dashnaks and Hunchaks have terrorized their own countrymen, they have stirred up the Muslim people with their thefts and insanities, and have paralyzed all efforts made to carry out reforms; all the events that have taken place in Anatolia are the responsibility of the crimes committed by the Armenian revolutionary committees."
Williams, The British vice-consul, writing from Van. (March 4, 1896, British Blue Book, Nr. 8 1896, p.108.)
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Post by thracian08 on Mar 5, 2010 14:05:23 GMT -5
Need I say more
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 5, 2010 16:58:15 GMT -5
You forgot to say that your ancestors are genocide-committers. The whole world knows it...and it doesnt count what you believe...since it is the world that will judge you...
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Post by thracian08 on Mar 5, 2010 17:03:35 GMT -5
It's not what I believe it's the facts
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Post by thracian08 on Mar 5, 2010 17:05:40 GMT -5
Armenians are the ones who base events on feelings
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Post by thracian08 on Mar 5, 2010 17:19:09 GMT -5
Armenian atrocities of Turks:
They are the biggest liars...
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 5, 2010 17:22:00 GMT -5
Thracian you better stop these justification-attempts because they make you sinning. Your ancestors are not worth it making yourself a barbarian, too...s.hit on them. Thats the only thing they deserve anyway. Im not refering to your ancestors exactly...you know what I mean...
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