Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 14, 2010 17:58:50 GMT -5
Some more ancient restorations coming up. I'm so glad the government is continuing this trend of digging up ancient historical sites. And you know, I would love to do this for a year or two. If only I didn't have a mortgage to pay, I'd pack my bags and head to Macedonia. www.crnobuki.macedonianarchaeology.org/Searching for Lyncus, Capital city of the Kingdom of LyncestisArrhabaeus I, the king of Lyncus, was the grand-grand grandfather of Alexander III of Macedon and ruled from the city of Lyncus in the 5th century B.C. (see at Hammond N.G.L. and Griffith G., A History of Macedonia, Vol II (550-336 B.C.), Oxford 1979,14). In 199 B.C. the Roman consul Publius Sulpicius Galba leading the Roman Legions set a camp near the town of Lyncus by river Bevus. On a high hill, at a distance of 1 roman mille the Macedonian king Philip V also set a military camp (Livy XXXI). Assuming that this micro geographic location is related with the present day river Shemnica the remains of this important ancient town are located near the site of Gradishte, village Crnobuki, as well as the operational military camp near Kale, Vakavska Korija, village Kukurechani. According to this information from this year we are starting systematic archaeological excavations at the site Gradishte, Crnobuki. There are registered multiple cultural horizons starting from the late Neolithic as well as the Bronze, Classical, Hellenistic and the Roman Period. In the early imperial period the life in the city slowly starts to die because of the cultural and administrative rising of the nearby town Heraclea, near present Bitola. Two field school sessions are available in 2010 and the program includes the following three modules: field work; educational courses (lectures, workshops and field trainings), as well as excursions. The field work is including field surveys, finds processing and documentation. All participants will receive Searching for Lyncus, Capital city of the Kingdom of Lyncestis Field School certificate specifying field hours, educational models and sites visited. Center for Arhaeological Research offers a follow-up excursions (3 day) to the Ancient Macedonian capital city Pelagonia (Visoka and Bonche); Heraclea Lyncestis and to the city of Ohrid, the city member of UNESCO. Period(s) of occupationClassical, Hellenistic, Roman ( 5th century B.C. - 3rd century A.D.) Searching and discovering of the city Lyncus First session starts from01.08.2010 until 15.08.2010 and the second session starts from 17.08.2010 until 31.08.2010 (15 days) Minimum length of stay for volunteers15 days Minimum age18 years old Experience requiredNo working experience required A couple of pictures from the banner of that web site.
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Post by ljubotan on Apr 15, 2010 9:16:35 GMT -5
Nikola,
Let me say this first, I'm the first to say to anyone that people from Macedonia are the most humble, polite and non arrogant Slavs of them all in former Yugoslavia! I've always admired the hard working mentality and the great unselfish love for family and kids. Very devouted and not the type of men that 'normally' go around cheating and divorcing, unlike other part of former Yugoslavia.
Now with that said, it irratates me to no end how and why they're building ancient Macedonian buildings etc? Today's Macedonia was a land that had different illyrian tribes (Paeonians, Dardanians and whatever else), and very forcefully made apart of the Macedon Kingdom. So if that makes you a Macedonian then you're a Turk as well, since the Ottoman Empire forcefully acquired all southern Balkan countries.
The Macedonian slavs have no history related to themselves w/in those borders. Any legendary heroes fought for the Bulgarian idea or were Serbian Kings back in the middle ages. No inhabitant of that area fought for a 'Macedonia' back 500yrs ago or less or further back! Who from Vardar area prior to the arrival of Slavs in the 6th cent fought for the Macedonian idea?? The country would have been better off naming itself 'Vardaria' or 'Paeonija' back in 92'; especially when the President himself stated 'we have nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians, we are Slavs that came here in the 6th century'.
Yea its cool to some to associate themselves with one of history's greatest conqueres, Alexsandar the Great, but the reality is our customs, language and overall make up having nothing to do with him. Let me ask you this, if ancient Macedonia was not a great kingdom and conquered no one, would you or other proud 'macedonians' refer to yourselves as such today?
Bulgarians have the right to call themselves Thracians, but they don't because in many ways they're not. What about Serbians, they can call themselves Illyrians, Dacians etc but they don't; yet they physically live in that land where those ancient peoples lived. Vardar however was never ancient Macedonian, only conquered, whose inhabitants of that time tried fighting off Alexsanders father from invasion. The ancient people of Vardar back then showed they were not 'Macedonian'!!
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 15, 2010 12:00:27 GMT -5
Ljubotan, to suggest that the people currently living in FY Macedonia should not dig up and restore archaeological sites because they have nothing in common with the people who originally built them is incredibly insulting, illogical, and irrelevant. Firstly, these sites are being restored for touristic purposes, primarily. With such a rich and impressive history, it would be foolish not to market it to the rest of the world. Every other country does the same thing with their historical sites, why can't Macedonia? Because it irritates you? You will have to live with it I'm afraid. But even still, do you really believe that nothing of those ancient people survives in the current population? Furthermore, "Vardar" does cover parts of old Macedonia. You could argue that only the southern part covers the original, ancient Macedonia, but the people who live in those areas, Bitola, Ohrid, Prilep, etc, have every right to claim links to those of more than two millennia ago if they wish. You said it yourself: What about Serbians, they can call themselves Illyrians, Dacians etc but they don't; yet they physically live in that land where those ancient peoples lived. They can call themselves Illyrians, and so can the people from southern FY Macedonia call themselves Macedonians. And Ljubotan, don't come here and tell me I'm a foreigner to the land that I was born in. I'm not a Russian, or a Pole. I'm indigenous to Skopje, to the Balkans. If something old and ancient is discovered in Skopje, nobody can tell me I can't dig it up, be proud, and display it as an example of what my ancestors achieved. (Like Adam of Govrlevo for example www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=8228). This is my history. Like I have previously said, I call myself a Macedonian in a modern sense. I personally claim no links to Alexander the Great, but many of my fellow countrymen should have the right to if they wish.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Apr 15, 2010 14:00:08 GMT -5
Nikola,
I don’t think that Ljubotan was talking about ‘restoring’ ancient artifacts or buildings. I think it has to do with the supposed construction of new buildings in some sort of Ancient Macedonian/Greek architectural style.
What survives is some romantic idea of a link to antiquity. Greece took up the first stride in that direction and given a variety of factors, mainly money and politics, they were able to ‘convince’ the average person that they are indeed the direct pure and unaltered descendents of the Ancient Greeks, which is a completely different discussion that is not really relevant to this thread.
Indeed, it covers a bit less than 25% of Ancient Macedonia.
With enough money you can win any argument. However, the people of the cities you list have nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians. The fact that they live on the same area doesn’t mean that they are the same people. Much like it would be inaccurate for you to claim that you are an Australian Aborigines simply because you live where they live.
Anyone can call themselves as anything the please, but the point is, that this would all be based on some fairy tale and wouldn’t be substantiated by any evidence. The fact that a particular people live on a geographic area that was inhabited by a completely different people a couple of thousand years ago doesn’t mean that these are the same people.
Not necessarily, these Ancient Macedonian artifacts are a part of the region’s history. They’d only be your history if you yourself are an Ancient Macedonian.
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Post by ljubotan on Apr 15, 2010 14:01:30 GMT -5
I said nothing about not digging up archaelogical sites in Macedonia. Actually, they should be shown to the outside world, it's everyone's to enjoy.
You can't call yourself a modern Macedonian and at the same time claim you have nothing with ancient Macedonia. Its ridiculous! Surely everyone has the right to call themselves anything they want, but it has to be w/in reason. I find it sad and shameful how the newer generation in Macedonia has been brainwashed to think they're related to Alexsander the Great, but then again about 150yrs majority of Slavs there referred to themselves as only 'pravoslavni'. Hardly anyone there had an ethnic conscious, up until 1878 when the Bulgarians arrived on the scene. Surely I don't agree with the atrocities that happened to macedonian Slavs in Aegean during Greek communist era, but they had no business claiming themselves as people they're not.
Macedonians are a product of either Serb or Bulgarian ethnic character. Anything else needs to accordingly be renamed, as previously mentioned on my earlier post.
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Post by Kassandros on Apr 15, 2010 14:30:38 GMT -5
"New archaeological dig site announced - Lyncus" oh.. thats good! Now there is a very good chance (since bad Greeks are not there to "hide" stuff) to unearth findings written in.. Macedonian language.. right? ;D ;D Let us wait... I'm so thrilled.... ;D ;D PS. Nikola.. do you want a bet? I bet my life.. and you bet 1 euro. If you find EVEN ONE! written example of "Macedonian" language.. then I will kill myself. Do you bet at least... 1 euro? ;D ;D Come on.. after all.. its all about Macedonians as a "nation" and their "language". You pointing fingers to the Greeks for not accepting these terms. Lets see if something like that exists or if it does not. The game is into your hands. You have the place.. you have the means.... Greeks are out... show us signs of unearthed "nation" and "language". Fair enough I believe.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 15, 2010 17:46:08 GMT -5
I don’t think that Ljubotan was talking about ‘restoring’ ancient artifacts or buildings. I think it has to do with the supposed construction of new buildings in some sort of Ancient Macedonian/Greek architectural style. Well then that's wrong. The architectural style of the buildings that are being built in Skopje have many influences. From Greek, to Roman, to Turkish even (check out the styling of the new museum). They are NOT being built to look like classic Macedonian. I don't know why anyone would think that. What survives is some romantic idea of a link to antiquity. Greece took up the first stride in that direction and given a variety of factors... If it's good enough for the Greeks, it should be good enough for everyone else in the region. Indeed, it covers a bit less than 25% of Ancient Macedonia. But it constitutes a respectable portion of today's FY Macedonia. With enough money you can win any argument. However, the people of the cities you list have nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians. The fact that they live on the same area doesn’t mean that they are the same people. Much like it would be inaccurate for you to claim that you are an Australian Aborigines simply because you live where they live. It's ridiculous to think that the people living in the Balkans today are completely different to the people who lived there back in the olden days. Like I said, if you feel that you and your country are foreigners to these lands, then fine, but don't tell me I'm a foreigner to my land. I know I'm not.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 15, 2010 18:02:41 GMT -5
You can't call yourself a modern Macedonian and at the same time claim you have nothing with ancient Macedonia. Its ridiculous! Why not? I was born under the label of Macedonian, not Serbian or Bulgarian. Macedonian for me means recent history and identity. If Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks have issues with that, they should have brought it up decades ago. The people in FY Macedonia have been calling themselves Macedonians for much longer than since the early 90's, and yet nobody around them did anything to stop it. You can't just reverse the policies of your parents and grandparents when it's too late. If you feel that they made a mistake, then you have to live with it, not blame it on the people it was forced onto. Macedonians are a product of either Serb or Bulgarian ethnic character. Anything else needs to accordingly be renamed, as previously mentioned on my earlier post. The people living in Skopje have every right to the history of that city. Whether it dates back 40 years, or 4000 years (like the figurine I posted). The same is true for any city in FY Macedonia. If Macedonian churches or artifacts are discovered in Bitola, then the people of Bitola have every right to claim it as their history.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Apr 15, 2010 18:14:53 GMT -5
Nah screw that, we Bulgarians have our own history and we’re very proud of it. Heh, it’s actually a shared history with Macedonians.
Sure, I’m not arguing that. I’m just saying that the fact that we occupy a region that was occupied by Illyrians, Thracians, Ancient Macedonians, Ancient Greeks or whoever a couple of thousand of years ago, doesn’t mean we are those people. Those people have been long resettled and assimilated into a wide variety of ethnic groups. It’s difficult to say who’s got what. Obviously, there are some remains of the ancients in all of us, but they are not significant. To claim direct linage to these people is absurd and inaccurate. And out of all Balkanians, from what I’ve read, Albanians have the most credible claim to some sort of ancient link.
What’s more ridiculous is to think that today’s Macedonians are in fact Ancient Macedonians.
Pfff, my people founded two great empires, developed the Cyrillic alphabet (St. Clement of Ohrid), perpetuated Christianity to neighboring populations most notably today’s Romanians, fought against some of the greatest armies and were victorious, were the only people to have actually gotten the East Roman Empire to officially recognize Roman land as Bulgarian, and so on and so forth.
The fact that Macedonian’s propaganda calls Bulgarians Asiatic invaders, Mongolo-Tatars, etc. doesn’t make me feel as a foreigner, but it should make you feel stupid.
I sense an inferiority complex of some sort. Nikola, relax, I don’t know about you personally, but most of your kind before you were proud Bulgarians and they have all earned their place on the Balkans.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 15, 2010 18:16:46 GMT -5
"New archaeological dig site announced - Lyncus" oh.. thats good! Now there is a very good chance (since bad Greeks are not there to "hide" stuff) to unearth findings written in.. Macedonian language.. right? Should an Irishman who can't speak a Goidelic language be considered a foreigner to Ireland? Of course not. Language changes. It can evolve, it can be forced onto people. I don't dispute that the modern Slavic language doesn't match up with the language people spoke back then (so I don't know why you want to bet me), but that should NOT exclude the people living on top of those ruins from claiming them as theirs. If you disagree with that, then there's not point in going any further in this discussion.
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 15, 2010 18:20:16 GMT -5
Pfff, my people founded two great empires, developed the Cyrillic alphabet (St. Clement of Ohrid), perpetuated Christianity to neighboring populations most notably today’s Romanians, fought against some of the greatest armies and were victorious, were the only people to have actually gotten the East Roman Empire to officially recognize Roman land as Bulgarian, and so on and so forth.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 15, 2010 18:29:28 GMT -5
I’m just saying that the fact that we occupy a region that was occupied by Illyrians, Thracians, Ancient Macedonians, Ancient Greeks or whoever a couple of thousand of years ago, doesn’t mean we are those people. It doesn't mean we are the exact same people, but their genes and culture lives on in us all (to an extent). Some foreign influence shouldn't exclude us from claiming the history of that region as our own. Obviously, there are some remains of the ancients in all of us, but they are not significant. I disagree. What’s more ridiculous is to think that today’s Macedonians are in fact Ancient Macedonians. What's MOST ridiculous is to claim that people living in Bitola (for example) have no right to claim Hereclea as part of their history. You're ridiculous in fact.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 16, 2010 2:50:50 GMT -5
Look, I know that people like Novi and Pyrros will disagree with me on this issue, but, just like Ljubotan, I too recently went to a Macedonian wedding. The bride and the groom were both from Bitola, and for the first time, I decided to take note of the racial characteristics of the people there.
Slavic elements in people from Bitola is insignificant. Most of the people look very southern European and Greek like. From the olive skin, to the long pointy noses that almost merge into their foreheads.
I genuinely believe that southern FY Macedonians especially are not Slavic settlers.
On another note, I also think height in Macedonians is much higher than some may realise. There were a lot of tall people there.
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 16, 2010 4:20:05 GMT -5
Im all for archeolgical digs in Slav-North ? Macedonia ( dont know what else to call it. FYROM is insulting to some so... ) I think as long as its objective and nothing " wierd " is going on than thats fine. What is disturbing is a video kubrat put up showing God talking to these ppl. I dont like Pavel Kuzman and I am suspiscious of him. But that is a different subject. That being said I love archeolgical findings and its for all humanity not just one ethnic group.
Asen, pls tell me who thinks we are pure ancient greeks ? We had a discussion about this at one point. Pls, lets open up a thread and discuss if you feel this is the case. We have a LINGUISTIC and CULTURAL continuity.
Nikola, you seem a mature person and I only wish more ppl thought like you in your country. I agree with you that ALL balkan ppl are indeginous to the area. Probably more or less very same to each other. Just language and cultural factors divide. Ljuboten and Asen provide good points as well. To be honest, i dont know what to think of all of this anymore....
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 16, 2010 4:21:01 GMT -5
Do you have pics of these sites ?
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 16, 2010 5:32:39 GMT -5
chalkedon, I don't like that video of that prayer either but nobody in FY Macedonia would have taken it seriously anyway. As far as being fair with the discoveries, I think they are being very open about it. They also have officials from other countries overseeing things to make sure nothing is hidden. Check out this plate that was dug up in the fortress in Skopje. The text is not the same as modern day Slavic Macedonian and yet it's on display. I'm curious, can anyone read it?
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 16, 2010 5:34:46 GMT -5
i cant see embedded images from work Il check it out when I get home...
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Post by ulf on Apr 16, 2010 6:44:55 GMT -5
I'm curious, can anyone read it? I couldn't see everything clearly, but some of those letters that I could see good look like Church Slavonic language
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Post by ulf on Apr 16, 2010 7:13:16 GMT -5
btw, interesting mosaic in 4th century church from Ohrid:
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 16, 2010 7:28:04 GMT -5
I couldn't see everything clearly, but some of those letters that I could see good look like Church Slavonic language You're right, it is is Church Slavonic. I can actually make out some of the words. But I love this sort of stuff. I hope they dig up more so we can all learn more about our past.
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