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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 21, 2010 11:49:48 GMT -5
I will post this here since this forum is a meeting point of Bulgarians, Serbians, Slavophone Macedonians, Albanians and Greeks.
Lets make an effort and address other fellow Balkanians with more respect.
* It is more then evident that Balkanians are more similar to each other then to anyone outside of Balkans.
* In fact, it is also evident that we are mutually related (whether one likes it or not).
Reality is that if any of us were born 100 miles in either direction (imagine dear old gran-gran pa making such a trip during Ottoman empire for whatever reason) we could have easily been of another Balkanian nationality and therefore it is just plain childish to address each other in a manner some have displayed here.
Western powers have us at each others throats for obvious reasons. Until when will we fall for this division crap. I am not saying start falling in love with each other (even though you really should) but stop dehumanizing each other also.
TAKE YOU F BLINDERS OFF!!
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Post by chalkedon on Apr 21, 2010 11:54:48 GMT -5
I espescially agree on this one...but the sad thing here AA is that some nations feel the need to make BS up to feel like they belong here. Anyway, thats my take on it....
"Reality is that if any of us were born 100 miles in either direction (imagine dear old gran-gran pa making such a trip during Ottoman empire for whatever reason) we could have easily been of another Balkanian nationality and therefore it is just plain childish to address each other in a manner some have displayed here. "
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 21, 2010 12:07:10 GMT -5
i disagree that we are all the same... we share a lot sure, but there are grave fundamental differences as well ....
(e.g. the experience to set up a service for your car in Greece and in Serbia, or go to the police station or even for vacations, is a 100% totally different experience)
No, we are not the same. The only thing we can do, is start to compete in a positive way. i doubt this will ever happen.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 21, 2010 12:20:52 GMT -5
Yes there are differences and this doesn't mean people are not similar. There are differences within same country. Compare Novi Sad and Novi Pazar for example. Novi Sad is clearly central European on so many levels (centuries of Austro-Hungarian rule will do that to you) and Novi Pazar has a clearly Balkan feel to it (noticeable Ottoman influence (centuries of Ottoman rule will do that to you). Yet there is not reason for two be all of a sudden become antagonistic between each other. Novi Sad Novi Pazar Serbia (especially central and northern parts) has tried to economically mimic more same culture that influenced Vojvodina which explains the difference you mentioned. Montenegro is more comparable to your experiences in Greece because it has been less exposed to non-Balkan cultures (outside of coast but coast is overrun by highlanders so there goes that). In Balkans people are simply put not exactly a perfect material for service industry and that is still not a reason to use that to raise tensions between balkanian groups.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 21, 2010 12:25:03 GMT -5
Similarities are devious. While we can express similarly, gesture similarly, eat similar food or yell similarly... it doesnt mean we are necessarily similar. I feel totally alien to Greek or Serbian culture. When entering one of your homes I almost feel like Im entering a monastery, considering all of the saint portraits. This influences the difference in mindset and thinking. Ultimately, something that, however much i may get to understanding, i feel alien of distant from. Samething with many Turks and Bosnians. While your mindsets cannot seem to grasp out mentality, just look at all the posts Patrinos makes in the Alb forum, degrading our conversion... something we do not find any real insult in, and dont really see how it can be viewed as offensive.
Ultimately these are bigger than the fact that "oh you also eat baklava?"
In the end, even with the similar temperament, we find it hard to associate and connect with one another. I find little way to connect with Serbs, Greeks or Montey-Serbs, or Mako-Bulgarians. As far as I see it, they are simply... different. And as far you see it, I too am different. I dont hold your values as you dont mine.
However, the fact is that there is another level of connection. Intellectual-socialist for instance. Tirana Albanians educated under a socialist system may find themselves closer to Serbs from Belgrade than to villagers around them, purely as a result of the socialist factor. Secular intellectuals in Turkey may find themselves closer to Greek secular intellectuals in Athens than with their own kin. Elites in all these countries may connect more with eachother than the lower class in their own respective lands. ` ` I think people who find connections through such simple things as food or habits are missing the point and are just trying to find excuses to unite... and ultimately fail when the more relevant concerns come to the fore.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 21, 2010 12:28:28 GMT -5
Well, in a motel where we stay in Leskovac i have the best experiences from all hotels in the world i have been to. Leskovac was deep in Turkish empire and very far from Austira right? hell even far from Kragujevac or Nis... However, the professionalism/warmth/hospitality is smth i can tell you, there is nowhere to be found in Greece. You will find warm places maybe. You will find (very few) polite places maybe. You will find (some) professional places maybe. But all 3 in one, nowhere, from what i have witnessed. This goes right deep in one people's memories and goes way beyond geographical or political factors. Those are tiny details. PS i never noticed smth special about Vojvodina in comparison to the rest of ex-YU, and i think even the locals admit it. Some style maybe( ) but nothing spectacular, especially now that Vojvodina is the home of so many Kosovars/Southerners/Bosnians.. PS2 Nobody said about raising tensions. We should all look at each other, get to know him, learn his tricks, teach ours, and develop further ... thats how i see it, and for this reason, i got banned from the greek forum ;D what else is there to say?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 21, 2010 12:34:37 GMT -5
You got banned from the Greek forum because you insulted every single person who disagreed with your Serb aggrandizing mentality while degrading everything possible from your own ethnic sphere. You have failed to recognize anything regarding the complexities of both cultures you are into and instead have created simple black and whites.
Simply put, you were banned because your uneducated.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 21, 2010 13:12:15 GMT -5
As long as arbitrary ppl will call holders of MSc, as uneducated, (while calling as "education" some sort of primitive tolerance for anything possible defect one could imagine), well as long as this is true, the west will really hold us by our balls...
Its our stupidity and nothing more that hold us back...
Now, if we all agree that "west"/north is smth good and east/south smth elementarily wrong, we should at least acknowledge the ones from the balkans who are one step ahead...
now watch this.... You know my vendeta with the Bulgarians... However, while being in Sofia, if it was into my juristiction/powers, i could literally COPY at least 10-20 of their systems to adopt back in Greece. In those particular systems the Bulgarians were clearly ahead of Greece, and in some aspects, ahead of Serbia as well...
That's what i mean my dear albanian... but if you had grasped the idea, you wouldn;t be an albanian in the first place...
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 21, 2010 13:14:33 GMT -5
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Apr 21, 2010 13:15:43 GMT -5
Who ever misbehaves will have one of those attached to their post as a penalty ;D ;D
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Post by Kastorianos on Apr 21, 2010 16:48:09 GMT -5
Personally Im positively biased towards Serbs, Bulgarians and orthodox Albanians....while probably negatively biased towards Skopjans, Turks and muslims Albanians.
Means...a Serb has to convince me of his bad character in order to dislike him....a Turk has to convince me of his good character in order to become fond of him.
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Post by rusebg on Apr 21, 2010 17:36:42 GMT -5
I have a different idea about all these fights. I do not dislike people just because of their nationality. I mean, for me Pazar is a pathetic person not because he is a Serb (he is not a Serb but I don't know how to clasify him) but because he is an annoying poster, full of ignorance. The same goes for all others I am not in good relashionship with. And in my opinion, this is what matters. I can not hate someone just because he comes from a certain ethnicity or background or whatever, while people like Pazar hate Asen or Ioan or me just because we are Bulgarians. So, Admin , I won't make an effort. I will take any chance to ridicule someone like Pazar. Sorry. People like him should not be tolerated.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Apr 21, 2010 17:41:56 GMT -5
We all have more in common with each other than we do with anyone else outside the Balkans, true, but we still have differences between each other. The question is, are those differences significant enough to matter?
I can tell you they (mostly) don't for Balkan people that live in Australia. We are all immigrants here and so that brings tolerance towards each other. Even though I'm a "dirty mongol Skopian" in the eyes of Greeks and Albanians, I have many Greek friends here that never disrespect me or my culture. I have never had a disagreement with an Albanian either. We all always get along. If I go to Greece though, I don't think that would be the case.
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Post by logjiktek on Apr 21, 2010 19:54:57 GMT -5
Sorry. But I still have a strong innate hatred for Southern Slavs ( mainly Macedonians and Serbs and some Montenegrins.) Even if I found out tomorrow that I'm of Slavic stock, I would still dislike those groups all the same.
I'm indifferent towards Turks, Bulgarians, Bosnians and Croatians, but I do tend to view them more in a positive light. I only dislike the Turks in Macedonia....
The only group I've grown to dislike are the Greeks. They used to be in my indifferent list, but as time passes, I dislike them more and more to the point my stomach churns as I pass by a Greek Orthodox church....
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 21, 2010 20:12:33 GMT -5
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Post by insomniac on Apr 21, 2010 20:19:19 GMT -5
This thread is about finding common ground. Not differences.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 21, 2010 20:30:05 GMT -5
Ruse:
Here we go again Ruse, l post with reason and l show people evidence. I haven't yet seen substantial evidence from your party to prove otherwise. All l get from your party is ridicule because of your inability to debate. Why do you ridicule and name call, can't you disprove my evidence?....because you can't, hence why your party resorts to low human behaviour. Honestly, it strengthens my arguement that serbia must strengthen her borders and preserve her culture and language. I've read many books and serbia has extended her hand many times, but what did she receive by imbracing people...nothing....she got raped.
Aadmin:
Aadmin, l understand your point for the forums sake, don't take it the wrong way. Have we Serbs really learnt from the Yugoslav communist experience?. For the sake of harmony and understanding of lesser people than ourselves (our natural impulse to help) have we serbs prospered?. My point here Aadmin is you bend over to cultures that are incompatible to yours and give them the same freedoms, what will they do?, they will take advantage of it because we are compromising for them but they arn't compromising in-return for us. Serbs are such a naive people Aadmin, people never had much respect for naive people, hence why we are disliked and made fun of.
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Post by logjiktek on Apr 21, 2010 20:52:15 GMT -5
Different areas, different ideas. I was always raised with the "us" vs "them" mentality (most Balkanites are raised with idea.) In my case, "them" (shkijet, shkaj, etc) always referred to Slavs and "us" referred to the Albanians. My trips back to FYROM would only enforce this mentality. It didn't help that the FYROMians (the Slavs) held authoritative positions in FYROM, such as police officers and the worst were the airport workers. It seemed like we would always have to pay "carina" (tariffs) to those fckers (airport workers.) Most of the people that were stopped for "carina" were Albanians (granted we were probably the majority of the travelers.) I specifically remember how my Mother, who's extremely outspoken, would argue her way out of paying it or lowering the fee to an insignificant amount. Then were times when the police officers would come to our weddings and other festivals and complain that we didn't put up the FYROMian flag (granted all the Albos would put up the Albanian and even the American flag especially after 99'. ) Other times the police officers would come and break up the festivals and tell us we were past our "curfews." And the list goes on and on. I simply do not like Slavs. Even after receiving an education in the West and been raised here for the majority of my life, I can honestly say the word "Serb" or "Macedonian" put a bad taste in my mouth. As for the Greeks, I was never raised to dislike them. As an Albanian from FYROM, we didn't have much contact with them. But my experiences with Greeks in America and after learning of their mentality, I've grown to dislike them.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Apr 21, 2010 22:08:13 GMT -5
I completely agree with Ruse. And his quote above goes with what I wanted to say on the topic. Generally, we Bulgarians respect all those who respect us. The ethnicity or country a person comes from is really not all that relevant. The problems that we have here with Pazar and Gyrro have absolutely nothing to do with their ethnic self-identification, they are both just very limited individuals and most of their posts are inspired by some sort of hate or strong dislike toward some other ethnic group.
Kastorianos, what’s your background exactly? Are you Greek?
True that, but given the history of the region, any conversation that has to do with history and politics is bound to drift toward the differences rather than the similarities.
It’s people such as this that are one of the main driving factors that push us toward finding differences rather than similarities. Once again, Pazar posts about the poor little Serbs that have never done anything but help the whole World, yet the World has stabbed them in the back. Stop whining; stop portraying yourself as the victim of some sort of global anti-Serb conspiracy and get in touch with reality so we can all move on peacefully.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 21, 2010 23:00:51 GMT -5
I have a different idea about all these fights. I do not dislike people just because of their nationality. I mean, for me Pazar is a pathetic person not because he is a Serb (he is not a Serb but I don't know how to clasify him) but because he is an annoying poster, full of ignorance. The same goes for all others I am not in good relashionship with. And in my opinion, this is what matters. I can not hate someone just because he comes from a certain ethnicity or background or whatever, while people like Pazar hate Asen or Ioan or me just because we are Bulgarians. So, Admin , I won't make an effort. I will take any chance to ridicule someone like Pazar. Sorry. People like him should not be tolerated. do you think of Novi 24x7 non-stop or smth? get a life dude, (a new wife, a couple of kids, you know)
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