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Post by Red Brigade on Jun 3, 2010 11:51:08 GMT -5
By the way, a rocket was launched against a Turkish naval base in Hatay region (I think) which killed 7 soldiers allegedly by PKK the very same day that this incident occurred. Coincidence?
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 3, 2010 15:49:05 GMT -5
Actually the PKK has declared that it will target all over Turkey not just Southeast region 3 days before the flotilla incident.
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Post by Steven on Jun 4, 2010 14:23:05 GMT -5
It’s true that Muslims have a greater history of tolerance towards Judaism than any other religious group in the world but they were not humanitarians by today’s standards. Non-Muslims were banned from owning weapons and horses. No church or synagogue could be taller than a Mosque. Muslims would have been given most of the important administrative jobs. Criticism of Islam was not tolerated and was punishable by death. It’s true they tolerated Christanity and Judaism but they wanted to assign a superior position to Islam. You tolerate something you don’t like- you say “Ok, I’ll tolerate you.” I really think that most Muslims just wish that the unbelievers did not exist. There was never really that many Jews in Islamic lands before the Holocaust so they didn’t make that much trouble for the Muslims and they were easier to control. If it had been a large population of Jews I think they would have adopted stricter measures to control them.
As an Albanian don't you feel some connection with the land of Albania because you ancestors lived there? Don't you think Jews are allowed to feel the same way? People who criticize Zionism most often do not give a satisfactory alternative as to where the Jews should go if they don't go to Israel.
Why didn’t the ship just go to Egypt and then Gaza, that way they would have avoided all this? How do you know that the Israelis want to stop humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza, rather than just make sure no weapons get through?
Like I said, I think the best solution would be to partitian the land equally. I just don’t think that the Palestians would behave any more humanely to the Jews if the role was reversed.
They did colonize the land of others in the past. That’s how Islam spread. Mohammed expelled two tribes whole tribes of Jews. It’s true that their system is for their land but then they shouldn’t complain when other countries deny rights to Muslims, such as banning hijab. Muslims insist on having their rights in western countries but when asked about why a lot of Arab countries (not all) don't recognize non-Muslim rights they say that the system is for their land. Aren't nations like France and Denmark allowed to have a system for their land as well?
Palestians and the PLO have stated that there ultimate goal is still to take back the entire land of Israel. I don’t support what Israel is doing with colonization I just don’t think that the Palestinians would be any more humane if the situation was reversed.
That’s because Israel has more weapons that can cause more damage than the Palestinians have. Who says that if the Palestians had the same kind of weapons that they wouldn’t use them?
Ok wise ass, then maybe the motivation was not to bring Aid, but to bring attention to what is going on.
They probably knew well in advance they would be met and the sh*t would hit the fan and had the cameras ready to capture it all.
The best thing that could of happen to them, happened. (with respect to gaining world attention to their cause) If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and has feathers, there's probably more going on than just a humanitarian mission. Just sayin'. It's one thing to try bring aid to a distressed region. It's quite another to walk into a pub on St. Paddy's Day and yell, "F ck the Irish!" drones gun down a wedding party in Pakistan, its page 5...no world outcry...
A rock gets thrown across the street in Hebron and it's front page NY Times. Why?
For Israel, the idea of even a single state is cultural annihilation under waves of Pan-Arabism, and in particular Wahabbist Arabism that seeks its (Israel's and Judaism) annihalation from the earth.
As Jon Stewart pointed out last night, close to 50 South Koreans met their end at the suspected hands of a North Korean attack sub in a clear act of war, yet no outcry and certainly no outrage...
In this situation, where things remain still yet unclear (the possible presence of Brotherhood provocateurs who were planning to assault and possibly lynch boarding IDF soldiers) it is telling that all the usual Israel and Jew hatred comes out of the woodwork. Now you can criticize and should criticize Israel for the handling of this affair and certainly for the Gaza blockade...
But it should be done in proportion, and with clarity, and with all the facts on the table.
Shrill hyperbole, conspiracy theory, and racism of any type needs to be cast aside in favour of rational examination of the issues...all IMHO of course
Others have also pointed out the incredible irony in Turkey talking about human rights violations...Kurds, Armenians, ring any bells? Cough cough genocide?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 4, 2010 16:55:59 GMT -5
I feel connected to Albania because I was born there, because my people live there. Under such circumstances, should I be allowed to colonize Yugoslavia since my people see themselves as indigenous Illyrians. This argument is extremely flawed. If we were to go by it you would have a massive world wide war between peoples since extinction and birth of populations in given territories is a historical thing.
Your undermining he entire position of Jews in the Islamic world. They achieved far higher levels of development than those in Europe. Look at Maimonides. Ottoman Salonica was the only place in the world where Jewish merchants could bully other Christian ones, while in Austria they were being expelled from towns and cities. Its not just tolerance, Jews in the Islamic world held a high level of respect, which is why they more often than not sided with Islamic leaders instead of Christian ones. Jewish communities could thrive economically, they could become wealthy merchants, they could become doctors and advisers to Sultans. This is unparalleled in Europe.
Why not just ship it to Gaza instead? Dont you get it, they were making a point: Palestinians are being bullied and brutalized. What you are arguing is that the world's interested groups remain passive and watch a siege that they consider illegal to go on unabated.
Are we really going by this argument? Read the book of kings much? Let me just summarize it: Jews enter the land of Canaan and receive orders from god to kill everyone and settle over the land. We are talking about pre-modern movements of people, in which case the Jews are just as guilty.
Is that why the PLO signed over the claims to over 87% of once inhabited Palestinian land? Even after this, the Palestinians continue to suffer from settlement, walls and No Man's Lands.
There is a clear difference: Israel is the byproduct of modern artificial state construction and a result of a mass expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian natives (many of whom were converted descendants of the Israelites who lived there once). Denmark and France are the byproducts of hundreds of years of ethnic and nation development that began in the early middle ages. France does not have a million natives living in ethnic ghettos... again, this is a terrible example as it presumes something which is not even a reality: Israel as some sort of natural creation.
That doesnt mean anything. This isnt a case of "you dont scratch my back too hard and I wont yours aswell." If one side commits warcrimes, or, in the case of the Palestinians, would possibly do so if they were equally armed (presumption), it does not give the other side the right to do so. Iraqi insurgents kill captured American troops, American troops do not make tapes of decapitations.
the equation of Israel with Judaism is nothing more than a lame attempt by Zionists to tie in the two concepts and thus argue that if Israel is endangered then all of Judaism is under the threat of some new Holocaust. The Palestinians and Arabs never had a problem with Jews until Israel was created and they were forced out of their homes (something you have entirely ignored up to now). Their chief beef is with the Israeli state and their anti-Judaic sentiments is spurred by this fact. No Israel = No Jewish hatred. Thus, in this way, the settlers in Israel brought with them hatred of their own people by taking the land of others.
What? Is that why the best they could come up with as "weapons" were some sticks and knives that the IDF uncovered? Is that how the Brotherhood was going to militarize Gaza Palestinians? This is nothing more than BS, absolute BS.
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Post by restless1gr on Jun 5, 2010 11:29:55 GMT -5
Uffff, Steven, what Turkey or Palestine does is not the issue here. I m talking about the single incident and how legal it is, while you re talking about the background of the participants in it...
Due to our completely different points of view, you and I will not understand each other in this subject, so I give up...
P.S. Do me a favour: Please never become a diplomat or a judge: you re not made for these jobs...
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Post by Steven on Jun 5, 2010 16:20:38 GMT -5
Albanians have Albania, have you ever thought that Ashkenazi never had a state of their own until the creation of Israel? You still haven’t answered my question, where would you send 5 million people if you were going to expel them from Israel? Every country closed there doors during the holocaust, so they didn’t really have a choice of were to go. I admit that toleration of Jews in the medieval Islamic world was greater than that of medieval Europe. However, it was still far behind todays standards of human rights in western countries. Everything I’ve said was a fact. Many Christians in Spain were killed for criticizing Islam. No church or synagogue could be taller than a mosque. Most of the administrative positions would have been held by Muslims. Non-Muslims could not own horses or weapons so they could not rebell. Jews may have prospered as merchants but you have to admit there were some privileges that were only for Muslims. That would be discrimination by today’s standards. Things change, look at Wahhabi Saudi Arabia and Iran, they’re far from the toleration of an Islamic Spain and today there's human rights violations in almost every Islamic country. The point I’m trying to make is that Jews are no more inherently evil than Arabs. Saying that Jews are evil and Arabs are saints is not true- they both have some black marks on them. I wasn’t talking about the state of Israel, I was talking about extreme Islamic republics like Saudi Arabia and Iran. It makes no sense to cry about hijab being banned in France or a Swedish cartoonish making fun of Mohammed when they ban bibles, Jews, and women not married to Muslim men. You don’t see France or Sweden banning Qurans and Muslims are allowed to immigrate there. I actually agree that colonization of Palestinian land should be halted but what bothers me is when people demonize Jews. A lot of what’s going on has to do with historical circumstances cause by Europe, and is not the fault of Jewish people themselves. If there had been no holocaust there would have been no reason for the creation of Israel. So why don’t Palestinians blame Germany or the other European countries that expelled and murdered Jews? I am sceptical of this, maybe they were tolerant of a small Jewish population in the past but I’m not quite sure if a modern Palestinian state ruling all Israel would recognize the rights of Jews. Would it be like Islamic Spain where both Jews and Christians were tolerated or would it be like a modern wahhabi Saudi Arabia. If Hamas has ties to Al Qaeda I fear it could be more like the latter. Terrorists are not known for tolerance. Click here: What happened, according to senior IDF official, is that some of the ship’s passengers linked to the Turkish aid group IHH appeared to be paid mercenaries and were carrying one million eruos. This group might have deceived the peace activists about its intentions. In order to understand the incident you need to know the background of the participants in it. Any diplomat or judge knows that.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 5, 2010 16:30:48 GMT -5
Again, nobody cares if the Ashkenazi never had a state of their own. The Basque havnt either, nor the Kurds, nor Vlachs, nor thousands of other scattered ethnic groups around the world. That doesnt excuse ethnic cleansing.
I dont promote the destruction of Israel, that crime was long ago committed. I only want to see the Israelis now show some respect and consideration for the people they long ago cleansed from their proper homes. To not brutalize them and massacre them left and right, to treat them with some compassion and maybe the Palestinians will too calm down.
And its pointless to discuss Wahabis, since their rise is the byproduct of the same people who brought up Israel. It too was a western creation and production.
Because its the Jewish settlers who came in by the boatloads, contrary to laws that were placed by the British. It is the settlers who build walls and barricades and continue the settlements. Crimes of others are not excuses for crimes against another. Nazi Germany doesnt excuse Ariel Sharon...
Ever questioned what birthed terrorism to begin with? It was actions like unquestioning support for Israel that has alienated the Muslim world to such a degree, given them a sense of being under siege and attack.
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Post by Steven on Jun 5, 2010 17:09:22 GMT -5
Toskaliku, you're shooting yourself in the foot with this statement:
First you say:
Then you say:
and this:
So the crimes of Israel and the west are an excuse for Islamic extremism and for terrorists to commit crimes against others?
The Basque, the Kurds, and Vlachs don't have a state but they all have their own land and they're all the same religion as those around them. They would have suffered some persecution but not to the same extent that Jews suffered. What happened to the Jews in Europe was that they were continually expelled from every country they tried to take refuge in. The Basque, Kurds, and Vlachs were not expelled from their land. You say that nobody cares if the Jews never had a state of their own before but you don't offer any alternative to where they would go if it wasn't for Israel.
At least we agree on something, that's my hope too that the two groups will respect each other and live peacefully.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 6, 2010 3:34:32 GMT -5
Im not interlinking any of them.
Um... just so you know, while upwards of 60% of Jews live in Israel, another 40% live abroad, mainly in the US, where they flourish like no others. I live in NYC, the city with the highest concentration of Jews outside of Israel... they are under no threat here, in fact our mayor is Jewish... Jews are not under threat anymore, they were never under threat in America. The Nazi regime was was a few years long, even though its damage is huge. Nevertheless, Jews have found welcoming homes in many areas, including high concentrations in England, they were well received in the US as well. They also had a massively strong presence in the Soviet Union, where much of the socialist tops were of Jewish background.
Nothing excuses extremism, however the creation of Israel and the subsequent tension between Arabs and Israelis alongside numerous other catalysts (such as the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan) are why we have today the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. The increased feeling in the Muslim world that they are being attacked, by Israel through America, by the Soviets, by enforced secularism, is the reason why Muslims are falling into extremism. Every time a rocket hits Gaza, a new wave of extremists are born...
Nothing excuses anything, but a look into the bigger picture before going off and saying "extremist" would help everyone here.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jun 6, 2010 5:16:08 GMT -5
We have to realise that there are "two major worlds" here on this planet:The Western world and the Muslim world.
The West are calling the shots,and the Muslim are always having to give in and give in and give in.Not only that,there are a lot of disrespectful acts by the West towards them.I these are the origins of Muslim terrorism.
Sure,many say it has nothing to do with that but it is all to do with Islam because they say,look at the Koran.
Well,most Muslims dont know a lot about their religion and if all these acts are because of the Koran,I think much of the West would have been destroyed already.
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Post by Red Brigade on Jun 6, 2010 9:25:55 GMT -5
Islamic extremism was bolstered in every corner of the world during the Cold War by the CIA in order to weaken the Arab nationalists who were aligned with the Soviet Union. Therefore claiming that Islamic extremism was created as a "defensive shield" against the Western aggression is incorrect.
The reality is that Hamas was supported by Israel to weaken Arafat during the heighdays of the PLO and the existence of Islamic extremism is in fact helping Western extremists to justify their violent policies because no sane individual would feel any sympathy for religious wackos.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 6, 2010 12:43:56 GMT -5
What aloha said is absolutely correct. Islamic jihad came to the fore during the Carter and Reagan administration's "Roll back" policy of supporting Right-wing movements against leftist ones. This meant supporting nationalist right wing regimes in south America, as early as Nixon, and funding the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan. Most of the noted world terrorists today have their background in the US funded Mudjahadeen movement in Afghanistan. Look at this article: www.rense.com/general39/pakh.htmIsrael did much to bolster the same movement America did. Israel also, very humanely, sold weapons to the White Apartheid movement in South Africa, following the same anti-left policies.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jun 6, 2010 15:15:28 GMT -5
Yeap.It was America who got them started by supplying them with weapons and by training them.Only to have them hit back at America later.
But then again,I think it's a combination of factors.
There's definitely a karma,hit back thing,because the West(especially America) disprespects Muslims.And I dont mean by things like the cartoon in this case.
This whole imperialistic and white mens burden thing really fires them up in anger.
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Post by Steven on Jun 8, 2010 1:05:14 GMT -5
The truth is that all states are rooted in war. It's just that some have become to be seen as more legitimate because they've been around for a longer time. Ever since people first appeared on earth and killed the neanderthals we've been ethnic cleansing. Even the United States has it's roots in colonialism and taking the land of native Americans. How long does a state have to exist to be considered legitimate?
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jun 8, 2010 5:15:38 GMT -5
I do not support current government's initiatives that might involve confrontation with Israel, and/or Israel's Anglo brothers. I think, Turkey's attempt for becoming a regional leader happens to be premature. In my opinion, it would be appropriate to seek such position in 2020s. Until then, it would be wise to play safe.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 8, 2010 14:56:47 GMT -5
Turkey's confrontation with Israel is nothing big right now, its only pointing to greater changes in the future. At the moment its mostly rhetorical, but everything begins with baby steps. I actually trust Turkish political movements that are happening today, AKP would not be so openly aggressive without being sufficiently confident. This new aggression has resulted in Turkey slowly becoming the saving grace of the Islamic world, a position is has lacked since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
When I first read about the AKP I was very opposed, but reading up on them now I find them to be one of the best things that has happened to Turkey in a very long time. I think most Turks who are opposed to the current government do so blindly without really thinking about but rather listen to the same ideological diatribe that they have been spoon fed for generations.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jun 9, 2010 6:59:08 GMT -5
Turkey's confrontation with Israel is nothing big right now, its only pointing to greater changes in the future. At the moment its mostly rhetorical, but everything begins with baby steps. I actually trust Turkish political movements that are happening today, AKP would not be so openly aggressive without being sufficiently confident. This new aggression has resulted in Turkey slowly becoming the saving grace of the Islamic world, a position is has lacked since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. When I first read about the AKP I was very opposed, but reading up on them now I find them to be one of the best things that has happened to Turkey in a very long time. I think most Turks who are opposed to the current government do so blindly without really thinking about but rather listen to the same ideological diatribe that they have been spoon fed for generations. I think, taking steps to become a regional power requires state level consensus. Most importantly, such moves should be taken only if the political, economic and military infrastructure could nuetralize the risks involved. In my opinion, Turkish economy must be at least as large as Italy, and the local industry must be as effective as Korea or Brazil. Presumably, such level would not be available before early 2020s. Until then, Turkey should be careful about the international boundaries that exist at present.
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Rhezus
Moderator
DERZA STURIA TRAUS
Posts: 1,674
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Post by Rhezus on Jun 9, 2010 13:19:32 GMT -5
Exactly, Jews will never learn. And they are definately not "the chosen ones" - who chose them and for what?! Such kind of $hit could be only written in their own book of "fairytales". Just that single thought makes them more rasist than any other nation. As Thracian mentionned, jews want to control and very clearly we see how US is under the rule of Israel - clear like a sunny day. It's the time now the World higher its awareness - about who controls and who manipulates humanity.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 10, 2010 12:38:58 GMT -5
Actually Vizier, Turkey is a regional power; it's quite interesting, this morning on CNN they quoted Turkey as such.
I wish Turkey could make it's own military weapons so it doesn't have to rely on other countries for them. I know they will be beginning on some things, but they should be able to do most of them.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 10, 2010 13:06:39 GMT -5
I dont think Turkey will ever be able to reach the industrial potential of Brazil, a country with over twice the population as well as resources. Korea I definitely see Turkey toppling in the next several decades. Koreans would not be where they are today without the significant US presence.
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