ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 13, 2010 8:16:30 GMT -5
Only the last years we woke up and state and different people try to help Pomaks to keep their distinct identity and language. Yes, you also lie to yourself and to them that they are something different than Bulgarians.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 14, 2010 3:00:29 GMT -5
Pomaks are not ethnic Bulgarians. I think, Bulgarian nationalistic dogma should not be applied to the case of Pomaks. After all, Pomaks are one of the minorities of Bulgaria long with the Turks, Romas. Turks and Romas have totally different language, culture, songs, tradition than the Bulgarians... The only difference between Bulgarians and Pomaks is the faith. Yes, Turks and Romas have different language whilst Pomak speak a South Slavic dialect (but not Bulgarian). In fact, Pomak culture differs from the Bulgarian one. Bolgaric Chuvash peoples speak a Turkic language, but culturally speaking, they are closer to the Russians, and the Danube Bulgarians compared to the neighboring Kazan Tatars. This is due to the evaluation of their ethnic identity. Whether you accept it or not will not change a thing. By the way, I met many Pomaks in Turkey (emigrated from Bulgaria), and I could assure you one thing: They do not like being classified as the ethnic Bulgarians! Perhaps, the Pomaks of Bulgaria do act softly if you call them as the ethnic Bulgarians, but I do not think that you will be very appreciated amongst the Pomak masses of Turkey, Albania, Bulgaria or Greece as long as you pursue the dogmas of the Bulgarian nationalism.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 14, 2010 6:53:33 GMT -5
Yes, Turks and Romas have different language whilst Pomak speak a South Slavic dialect (but not Bulgarian). obviously you know nothing about their language. Do u speak Bulgarian and Pomak? I speak Bulgarian, I ve been in villages with Pomak majority. Let me tell you they speak nothing other than Bulgarian. I ll not let a Turk classify Pomak and Bulgarian differences for a Bulgarian speaker! Probably as much as catholic Bulgarian culture differs from orthodox Bulgarian culture. I do not get why you say this. Chuvash people have little to do with Bulgarians (Pomaks included). Of course! Obviously they chose to identify with their faith, not with their ethnicity - Bulgarian, since they considered moving to Turkey. Because its only faith that connects them to the Turks. I think it depends, recently some Goranis declared themselves Bulgarian.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 14, 2010 9:07:44 GMT -5
obviously you know nothing about their language. Do u speak Bulgarian and Pomak? I speak Bulgarian, I ve been in villages with Pomak majority. Let me tell you they speak nothing other than Bulgarian. I ll not let a Turk classify Pomak and Bulgarian differences for a Bulgarian speaker! I do not have to speak Bulgarian or Pomak to have opiinion on the subject. I have some Pomak friends who were born in Turkey and some who were born in Bulgaria. The ones who emigrated to Turkey about 100 years ago speak alot different than the Pomaks who emigrated to Turkey in 1980s. At present, most Pomaks can talk Bulgarian, and this is due to language policies of the Bulgarian state. However, I doubt that you could understand 50% of the Pomak language if they speak amongst themselves. Probably not. I say it to point out similarities. After all, Chuvash people have alot to do with the Bulgarians since they were one and the same people some 1500 years ago. . In general, they did not emigrate voluntarily. Most of them were forced to emigrate or moved out of Bulgaria to evade prosecution. If you read the main article (of this thread) carefully, then you could also comprehend this bit, the way the publishers of the Bulgarian magazine did. I have never heard of it. ;D
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Jul 14, 2010 11:03:35 GMT -5
In Bulgaria there are some Pomaks that identify as Turks, and most of those don't even speak Turkish. This is all due to initiatives sponsored by the Turkish government. There are plenty of Pomaks that identify as Bulgarians, as they are indeed ethnic Bulgarians who have converted to Islam.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 14, 2010 11:08:04 GMT -5
I do not have to speak Bulgarian or Pomak to have opiinion on the subject. I have some Pomak friends who were born in Turkey and some who were born in Bulgaria. The ones who emigrated to Turkey about 100 years ago speak alot different than the Pomaks who emigrated to Turkey in 1980s. At present, most Pomaks can talk Bulgarian, and this is due to language policies of the Bulgarian state. However, I doubt that you could understand 50% of the Pomak language if they speak amongst themselves. At present I can understand 100 percent of what Pomaks are saying which makes them speakers of Bulgarian language. I ve been to Pomak villages and I had no problem to understand them... As for those Pomaks who moved 100 years ago- of course their language is probably heavily turkified being cut from their ethnos... As u know a language is developing and for over 100 years they were cut off from the most natural connection - to their kin. I m actually surprised they speak some kind of Bulgarian 100 years after emigrating to Turkey... They should ve been completely turkified by now. Its well known fact Turkey easily assimilates totally different ethoses. why? its natural for some differences to exist when the church is different but they are not major. Thats not true. Bulgarians were not formed as ethnicity 1500 years ago. The formation happened in 8-9 century and it was a fusion of mainly 3 groups: Slavs, Bulgars and Thracians. You probably refer to the Bulgars (not Bulgarians) being similar to Chuvash... Probably, maybe... But to believe that the Chuvash didnt evolve, didnt mix with Tatars and others is totally unbelievable... That could explain their turkic language - the late mixture with turkic people...Probably the same happened to the Bulgars in Volga and the Bulgars on the Bolkans. well i m sorry they had to move, but if they counted more on their faith than on their ethnicity and were loyal to Ottoman empire, maybe thats best for all concerned. The pomaks that left in Bulgaria feel Bulgarian for most part. check internet. they did.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jul 14, 2010 11:41:31 GMT -5
Bulgarians were not formed as ethnicity 1500 years ago. The formation happened in 8-9 century and it was a fusion of mainly 3 groups: Slavs, Bulgars and Thracians. do you have in mind any reference to Thracians in 8-9th centuries?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 14, 2010 12:33:29 GMT -5
No matter what their origins are, Pomaks today are Muslim and thus Turkey, as the inheritor of the Ottoman Empire and the cultural "defender" of Balkan Muslims, will obviously get involved with them, especially as they, unlike say my people, have not really developed an independent identity outside of this Muslim faith. They are a minority that will obviously look to Turkey for help and naturally Turkey will get involved in their issues
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 14, 2010 13:33:30 GMT -5
Bulgarians were not formed as ethnicity 1500 years ago. The formation happened in 8-9 century and it was a fusion of mainly 3 groups: Slavs, Bulgars and Thracians. do you have in mind any reference to Thracians in 8-9th centuries? no, but do u have of vlachs or albanians, but it accepted they existed.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 15, 2010 1:17:17 GMT -5
At present I can understand 100 percent of what Pomaks are saying which makes them speakers of Bulgarian language. I ve been to Pomak villages and I had no problem to understand them... As for those Pomaks who moved 100 years ago- of course their language is probably heavily turkified being cut from their ethnos... As u know a language is developing and for over 100 years they were cut off from the most natural connection - to their kin. I m actually surprised they speak some kind of Bulgarian 100 years after emigrating to Turkey... They should ve been completely turkified by now. Its well known fact Turkey easily assimilates totally different ethoses.. There is no way you can understand Pomak 100% unless they speak Bulgarian with you. You know why? Turkish loan words are heavly used in Pomak unlike the case of Bulgarian. Of course you can wish what you want. However, Pomaks of Turkey, Bulgaria and Greece identify themselves with the Turks rather than the Bulgarians. If you were right, such thing would have never happened. I was not talking about formation of the Bulgarian Empire in the first place, but pointing out the connection that can be traced. By the way, there were no Thracians in the 8-9th Century. Pomaks who insisted to stay in Bulgaria were subject to ongoing oppression, and those were forced to comply with the dogmas of Bulgarian nationalism. Luckily, they preserved their identity by allying themselves with their Turkish counterparts. Ok. I will.
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Post by Ivanov on Jul 15, 2010 9:18:33 GMT -5
Jenny, cut the bullshit please. I know many Bulgarian Turks. Most of them speak Bulgarian with a very heavy accent, recently many of them deliberately don't teach their children Turkish at all, just because of this accent. But the Pomaks are something very different - their Bulgarian is better than mine, and it is the only language they know!
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 15, 2010 9:28:01 GMT -5
No matter what their origins are, Pomaks today are Muslim and thus Turkey, as the inheritor of the Ottoman Empire and the cultural "defender" of Balkan Muslims, will obviously get involved with them, especially as they, unlike say my people, have not really developed an independent identity outside of this Muslim faith. They are a minority that will obviously look to Turkey for help and naturally Turkey will get involved in their issues So you agree that Croatia should defend catholic Albanians right and Greece, Serbia, Macedonia should defend Orthodox albanians interests? Interesting thought.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 15, 2010 12:36:41 GMT -5
Catholic Albanians have never had any historical connection to Croatians. Albanian Catholics are not Catholic because of the direct intervention of some Croatian state. Greece already tries to interfere with Albanian Orthodox issues, hell the head of the church is a Greek. But its different. Greeks and Serbs do not have a legacy of it, or at least, with Greeks, such a recent one. The Byzantines have been dead for over 500 years and even longer as an entity of any significance. The Ottoman Empire died only about a hundred years ago and its memory is still very much alive in the minds of Muslim Balkanians and especially the resurgent Turkey.
I didnt say that was my view either... but I said that Bulgaria should expect such a thing. Not to mention that the Alb identity is not religious, its ethnic. The Bulgarian identity is strongly intertwined with your Orthodox faith, meaning you automatically isolate the Muslim ones.
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Post by Ivanov on Jul 15, 2010 13:46:37 GMT -5
This is true. If you ask the BG pomaks about ethnicity, they will most likely answer - Muslim. Some even say that they fear to call themselves Bulgarian, because this is equal to Christian.
But still we are not trying to patronize non Bulgarian Christians in Turkey.
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Jul 15, 2010 14:40:20 GMT -5
I want Bulgarian ethnicity to be ethnic, not religious like the Albanian one.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 15, 2010 22:47:03 GMT -5
By the way, alot of Pomaks do identify as Bulgarians. For example, the father of Tom Hanks' wife is Bulgarian muslim. I saw an interview with Tom Hanks about the Terminal, where he talks in Bulgarian. He said that his father-in-law, who is "Bulgarian" though him to speak "bulgarian language". Also lots of young pomaks who are not religious do identify absolutely as Bulgarians. Presently, Bulgarians are not too religious. I think the majority of the Pomaks do see themselves as Bulgarians. Turks should stay away.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 16, 2010 1:23:25 GMT -5
By the way, alot of Pomaks do identify as Bulgarians. For example, the father of Tom Hanks' wife is Bulgarian muslim. I saw an interview with Tom Hanks about the Terminal, where he talks in Bulgarian. He said that his father-in-law, who is "Bulgarian" though him to speak "bulgarian language". Also lots of young pomaks who are not religious do identify absolutely as Bulgarians. Presently, Bulgarians are not too religious. I think the majority of the Pomaks do see themselves as Bulgarians. Turks should stay away. I am sorry but, I have not met a single Pomak so far claiming some Bulgarian ancestry even though I met so many of them. Nevertheless, it is well known fact that the Pomaks in Turkey and Greece are particularly assimilated into Turkish culture, and their Pomak identity happens to be cluster of a larger layer common amongst Balkan Muslims. In Bulgaria, Pomaks have been the target of Bulgarian Nationalist dogmas since 1878. For this reason, some fraction of the Pomak populations must have been assimilated into the Bulgarians masses in order to evade ongoing prosecution. However, even today most Pomaks identify themselves as a minority together with the Turks rather than with the ethnic Bulgarians. That shows their overall perceptions.
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Jul 16, 2010 3:42:04 GMT -5
Pomaks of Turkey of course identify as Turks, otherwise they wouldnt have moved to Turkey. But the Turks have to accept that growing number of Pomaks do identify as Bulgarians and should stay out of the Bulgarian affairs.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 16, 2010 6:14:59 GMT -5
Pomaks of Turkey of course identify as Turks, otherwise they wouldnt have moved to Turkey. But the Turks have to accept that growing number of Pomaks do identify as Bulgarians and should stay out of the Bulgarian affairs. Growing number of Pomaks identifying themselves as Bulgarians? That is tricky affirmation. If the percentage of the Pomak population distancing themselves from Bulgarian Nationalism is higher than the ones who jump into the Bulgarian National Dogma Wagon, then your assertation could be deemed as false. In the case of Pomaks, I witness growing awarness of their own national identity, which differs substantially from the one that commonly exists amongst ethnic Bulgarians.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 16, 2010 7:32:33 GMT -5
ational identity? what national identity? they are bulgarians. all other teories are fairytales fabricated mostly by Turkey.
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