ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 20, 2010 2:32:21 GMT -5
In my opinion, Pomaks are not some ethnic Bulgarians, bulk of Pomaks does not have any intention to become one. exactly, its just your oppinion, not shared with anyone outside of turkey... its nationalistic view and the most probable reason why bulgarians will never trust turkey... because you are always so temped to interfear into bulgarian affair, including the matter with the Bulgarian muslims.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 20, 2010 6:08:38 GMT -5
exactly, its just your oppinion, not shared with anyone outside of turkey... its nationalistic view and the most probable reason why bulgarians will never trust turkey... because you are always so temped to interfear into bulgarian affair, including the matter with the Bulgarian muslims. Of course my views are shared by many people, particularly by the people who are not ultra-nationalist Bulgarians. Ioan, Do you think that Pomaks of Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey and Albania want to be named as " ethnic Bulgarians"? Well, if you think so, then I have news for you: That is just nationalistic dogma, more like the ones once existed in Turkey which did not even want to speak of the Kurdish identity. Luckly for us, we passed that stage. Now we have the Kurdish, Arab TVs broadcasting in native tongues all day long whilst you in Bulgaria have parties trying to ban such basic rights of the minorities. It is good to celebrate your diversity rather than trying to fit everyone into some nationalist perceptions.
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Post by raven on Jul 20, 2010 8:02:17 GMT -5
Pomaks are ethnic Bulgarians there really is no point in arguing about this fact, Of course it could be argued on basis of historical facts. Bulgarian Nationalistic Dogma is simply not enough to counter the arguments asserted in relation to the origin of Bulgarians or Pomaks. In fact, when the origins of the Bulgarians are deemed to be Turkic by the bulk of world historians (excluding Danube Bulgarian ones), it would be funny to talk about Pomaks as some ethnic Bulgarians Why would it be "funny"? What makes you think the Pomaks have more of a chance to be descended from the original Turkic Bulgars than other Bulgarians? If anything its less likely they have Bulgar influence compared to other Bulgarians. The original Bulgars were a steppe dwelling people, its much more likely they settled in lowland areas as opposed to the mountanious regions which the Pomaks largely inhabit. They sided with the Turks for cultural and religious reasons, this isnt enough of a reason to make them out to be a distinct ethnic group. In Anatolia many Shia/Alevi Turks fought rebellions against the Sunni Ottomans for centuries and took sides with the Shia Safavids. By your reasoning Alevis in Turkey are a distinct ethnic group due to them siding with different nations in the past. There are countless example of religious/cultural groups siding with other peoples against their own for their own interests. In Spain for example Protestant Spaniards even allied themselves with the Moors due to the oppression they suffered under their Catholic countryman. Would this have made Protestant Spaniards closer to Berbers/Arabs rather than Catholic Spaniards and a distinct ethnic group? Get real! Since when did voting for certain political parties signify ones ethnic origins? The DPS also has ethnic Bulgarians in its ranks so whats your point?
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Atan
Amicus
Posts: 307
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Post by Atan on Jul 20, 2010 9:33:55 GMT -5
Hats off to Raven. Excellent comment.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jul 20, 2010 9:38:29 GMT -5
Of course my views are shared by many people, I highly doubt that! I think they are shared only by ultra-nationalist Turks only! Most of Bulgarian Pomaks do. Some of Albanian Pomaks do too. Greece is trying to make a distinct ethnicity out of the Pomaks which one day would backfire greatly. The Pomaks in Turkey are totally brainwashed by the Turks and are completely turkified. I can clearly say they are just sucsessfully assimilated Bulgarians. The example is totally unapropriate. Kurds and Turks have different language, culture, history. Pomaks share everything with the other Bulgarians, except faith. Again you are mistaking the cases. And even if we accepted news to be read in Pomak language in what language do u think that news would ve been? Bulgarian of course!!! So first you mix Bulgarian Turks (who have news in Turkish) with Pomaks, who doesnt need news in other language because Bulgarian is their native one! I agree Pomaks have some differences but they are not that big. In the regions there are differences, a shop and a moeasian do have some differences but also share very big amount of similarities! The same is the case with Pomaks! And its deffinately NOT a Turkish problem!!!
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 20, 2010 9:59:26 GMT -5
What makes you think the Pomaks have more of a chance to be descended from the original Turkic Bulgars than other Bulgarians? If anything its less likely they have Bulgar influence compared to other Bulgarians. Original Bolgars were Turkic peoples who tugged Slavs into the Balkans. They mixed with Slav and local masses, and over centuries they adaped the Slavic language. However, they also allowed migration of Turkic tribes like the Cumans into the Bulgarian territories. In that sense, let us bear in mind that there is no such thing like Bulgarian influence. There are three different ingredients of the Bulgarian ethnicity. Turkic, Slavic, and Local ones. After all, let us bear in mind that there exists linguistic and cultural relations between Turks and Pomaks. There are also such relations between the Pomaks and the Bulgarians. However, with regard to social relationships, I must conclude that the Pomaks are surely closer to the Turks and definetly can be deemed as seperate ethnic identity. I am a Karachay-Balkar. My grandfathers were from the place where Great Bulgaria was formed. The original Bolgar settlement was in fact a mountainous place as you could see from my avatar. ;D You might conclude so. However, the evolution of their ethnic identity is quite related to their political and cultural leaning. Alevis were mainly Turkmen populations, and it is true that they sided with the Azeris of Iran and Caucasus. That is why, Azeri identity evolved differently than the Turkish one even though Turkey and Iran (Iran ruled by the Azeris until the early 20th Century) did stop waging war on the other since 1638. Karamanlis were the Turks following Orthodox faith. With the implementation of the Population Exchange Agreement, Karamanlis ended up in Greece whilst Muslim Greeks ended up in Turkey. That was not some coincidence since evoluation of the ethnic identities in the Ottoman Empire differed from the ones evolved in other European states. Since the party has ethnic roots.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jul 22, 2010 22:12:43 GMT -5
On the one hand, the Pomak language is heavly influenced by the Turkish langage, and bulk of Pomak population speaks Turkish as good as the Turks do. On the other hand, it is true that Pomaks speak a South Slavic dialect. However, let us also recall that Cumans who settled in Hungary now speak Hungarian instead of a Turkish dalect. In my opinion, Pomaks are not some ethnic Bulgarians, bulk of Pomaks does not have any intention to become one. I think most or all languages of ethnic groups under the Ottoman Empire were influenced by Turkish to varying degrees.That's normal and expected.It's the case everywhere:groups meeting and adopting aspects of each others culture.Nothing new there. I dont know whether the bulk of Pomaks speak fluent Turkish. But I think if that is the case,or if there are just many Pomaks who speak Turkish is due to the proximity with the Turks or the fact that they choose to learn it so that they can get handouts from Turkey since Turkey love stealing Balkan Muslims. The Cumans did not settle in or populate Hungary. That DNA test article you posted before proved me right.But you claimed that that article supported your view about Hungarians descending from Turkics.You misinterpret it for your own liking. Of course there are Turkic DNA in European(especially Eastern) populations.Fact is,the Turkics came there but not in large numbers. They established states and expanded their states to incorporate European land under their rule there,but they were not populaters there.Maybe only in small parts of the Caucasus but thats it. Another important thing to add,is that in the Ottoman Empire,Muslims were the favoured group.They had more rights and many Balkan Muslims saw the Ottomans as their protector.Like this,they(Pomaks) were closer to the state than the non-Muslims which explains the influence of Turkish in their language and their loyalty to the Ottomans. Because of Islam,the Pomaks were probably open to the Ottomans which facilitated whatever exchange between them.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jul 22, 2010 22:33:20 GMT -5
Ioan, Do you think that Pomaks of Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey and Albania want to be named as " ethnic Bulgarians"? Well, if you think so, then I have news for you: That is just nationalistic dogma, more like the ones once existed in Turkey which did not even want to speak of the Kurdish identity. Luckly for us, we passed that stage. Now we have the Kurdish, Arab TVs broadcasting in native tongues all day long whilst you in Bulgaria have parties trying to ban such basic rights of the minorities. It is good to celebrate your diversity rather than trying to fit everyone into some nationalist perceptions. To your first point,the Muslims of Greece are very much influenced by the Turkish goverment.They receive financial support from Turkey.I'm not suprised they would feel closer to Turkey. During the exchange of populations,Muslim Romas,Pomaks,Muslim Aromanians were also included in to the group to be placed in Turkey.This is another reason why they may side with Turkey. I also know that in the past,Turkey would encourage groups and individuals who could benefit Turkey by telling them to identify themselves as Turks or to find a Turkish connection etc so Turkey can claim them as theirs. In Turkey today,there are people and groups who want to ban the media which does not print and broadcast in Turkish.And from what I do know,it's exactly that free either in Turkey today even though there are channels and publications in other languages. Dont tell people to celebrate their diversity rather than trying to fit in some nationalistic perceptions when your country has been doing that for ages and they are still doing it by downplaying or denying a non-Turkish origin to aspects of Turkey
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Post by tsompanos on Jul 23, 2010 4:14:07 GMT -5
about greece trying to make a distinct ethnicity of pomaks that is just lol , pomaks in greece like every other citizen of greece is free to think they are whatever they want by the way greece from what i have seen (even from bulgaria) is the only country where they encourage pomak traditions and culture theres even pomak(bulgarian) news on tv.
and actually there are many pomaks that disntinct themselfs from bulgaria and mostly for the reason that they are muslim and ive heard that in many cases the bulgarians are just as bad to them as the turks, anyway bulgaria should have done as greece did to all greek muslims just send them to turkey or whatever lol
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 30, 2010 12:22:13 GMT -5
To suggest that Pomaks are anything but Bulgarians by origin is ridiculous in the extreme.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Sept 30, 2010 13:08:34 GMT -5
exactly arsenije.
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Post by thracian08 on Sept 30, 2010 13:08:53 GMT -5
tosun, Turks bad to Pomaks? Wtf? Turkey took Pomaks in. And HB, there are different Muslim ethnic groups in Greece; Turks, Pomaks, etc. Unfortunately, Greece doesn't recognize any minorities. There is a Turkish minority there and instead calls them Greek Muslims. They are not ethnically Greek. They are Turkish. My grandfather went there in the 1960's to teach at the Turkish schools. I even have a Greek friend who lived among the Turks there, and says so herself
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