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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 16, 2010 8:07:22 GMT -5
ational identity? what national identity? they are bulgarians. all other teories are fairytales fabricated mostly by Turkey. Pomak is the name of their nation. They are not Bulgarians. That is why they call themselves as the Pomaks.
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Post by Anittas on Jul 16, 2010 10:27:29 GMT -5
ational identity? what national identity? they are bulgarians. all other teories are fairytales fabricated mostly by Turkey. Pomak is the name of their nation. They are not Bulgarians. That is why they call themselves as the Pomaks. 1. There is no such nation. 2. If some consider themselves Bulgarians, whereas others consider themselves something else, then the matter is under dispute. 3. To identify yourself as something doesn't exclude the posibility if belonging to another group of people. They could be a subgroup of Bulgarians; or it could be a regional identity.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 16, 2010 10:33:15 GMT -5
exactly, i agree with anittas.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 16, 2010 16:49:08 GMT -5
Pomak is the name of their nation. They are not Bulgarians. That is why they call themselves as the Pomaks. 1. There is no such nation. 2. If some consider themselves Bulgarians, whereas others consider themselves something else, then the matter is under dispute. 3. To identify yourself as something doesn't exclude the posibility if belonging to another group of people. They could be a subgroup of Bulgarians; or it could be a regional identity. I think people could have different opinions on this subject. About the Pomak NationThere is a large minority nation in the Balkans which is mostly overlooked and neglected, even if they used to have an independent and recognized state of their own not so long ago. Minahan doesn't count them at all among many nations of One Europe. They number @ 500 000 - (150 000-200 in Bulgaria, 35 000 in Greece, some in Macedonia, and a large diaspora in Turkey -@ 300 000), speak dialects of Bulgarian and Turkish and maintain a strong and distinct identity. Their homeland is in the Rhodope Mountains. Bulgarians and Greeks consider them mostly converted to Islam Slavs. The Turks, on the other hand, like to believe they are descendants of ancient Cumans who accepted Islam from the early Muslim missionaries. When the Bulgarian Principality was created in the aftermath of the Russo-Turkish war, the Congress of Berlin 1878 established, at British insistence, an autonomous, but largely independent province of Eastern Rumelia with the Christian governor who was, nominally only, appointed by the Ottoman Sultan. The Pomaks rebelled against the Bulgarian-dominated Eastern Rumelia and established, with the British help, an independent Pomak Republic of Tamrash which lasted until the military coup brought Eastern Rumelia into the Bulgarian State in 1886. The territory of the Republic was then reincorporated into the Ottoman Empire. The Tamrash Pomak Republic used the flag of three horizontal bands of red-green-black. flagsvancouver.com/fotw/flags/bg_pomak.html#about
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 17, 2010 0:49:27 GMT -5
vizier, even your post says the pomaks speak bulgarian language. stop trying to fabricate our history.
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Post by EriTopSheqeri on Jul 17, 2010 1:05:02 GMT -5
I want Bulgarian ethnicity to be ethnic, not religious like the Albanian one. Man, aren't you a bit confused here
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jul 17, 2010 2:30:52 GMT -5
Religion seems to complicate things. Either way, the majority of Bulgarians are Orthodox, just like the majority of Albanians are Muslim.. but then again, neither seem to be overly religious. Though in all these Muslim countries, mainly in the Arab world there seems to be this notion of kinship due to the shared faith. I don't think such is the case with Christian countries.. or at least not to that extent.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 17, 2010 3:53:30 GMT -5
Man, aren't you a bit confused here why its a well known fact that cathlic, muslim, orthodox Albanians all feel Albanian ethnically and thats a very good thing, because thats what they are!
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Post by tsompanos on Jul 17, 2010 5:31:50 GMT -5
By the way, alot of Pomaks do identify as Bulgarians. For example, the father of Tom Hanks' wife is Bulgarian muslim. I saw an interview with Tom Hanks about the Terminal, where he talks in Bulgarian. He said that his father-in-law, who is "Bulgarian" though him to speak "bulgarian language". Also lots of young pomaks who are not religious do identify absolutely as Bulgarians. Presently, Bulgarians are not too religious. I think the majority of the Pomaks do see themselves as Bulgarians. Turks should stay away. lol her father is pomak and converted to orthodox now he and his wife who is orthodox greek live on some island in greece and say his greek
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 17, 2010 9:20:30 GMT -5
well NOT according to his SON_IN_LAW. See for yourself, pleaseeeeeeeeee:
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Post by oszkarthehun on Jul 18, 2010 5:05:24 GMT -5
I dont think that this religious kinship is always as strong as you may think it seems, its strong when united against whats seen as common enemies whether it be Israel or Western powers (eg Sunnis supporting Shias that are actively anti Israel) whatever but when they are not focusing on common enemies they bicker about each other whether its the Sunni's vs the Shia's or the more militant Muslims or Islamic countries being critical of Secular Muslim countries like Turkey, or wahabis critical about other Muslims etc.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 19, 2010 0:50:12 GMT -5
vizier, even your post says the pomaks speak bulgarian language. stop trying to fabricate our history. Source says Pomaks " speak dialects of Bulgarian and Turkish and maintain a strong and distinct identity". Are you a Pomak, Ioan?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 19, 2010 1:52:25 GMT -5
I m not Pomak. Some turkish words probably remained in the Southern Bulgarian dialect... Its well known fact that Bulgarian language possessed much more Turkish words that were removed after the liberation. But we all know what they mean - they are just archaic words that my grandma still uses like "ashkosum", "komshi" etc... This doesnt make Bulgarian Turkish... Its only natural that for 500 years some turkish words were adopted by us and then removed
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 19, 2010 6:54:00 GMT -5
I m not Pomak. Some turkish words probably remained in the Southern Bulgarian dialect... Its well known fact that Bulgarian language possessed much more Turkish words that were removed after the liberation. But we all know what they mean - they are just archaic words that my grandma still uses like "ashkosum", "komshi" etc... This doesnt make Bulgarian Turkish... Its only natural that for 500 years some turkish words were adopted by us and then removed What you said could be true for the Bulgarians, but I do not think it is applicable for the whole Pomak community.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 19, 2010 6:56:29 GMT -5
how are the Pomaks ALWAYS classified UNDOUBTEDLY? As south slavs! So south slavs CAN NOT speak Turkish, otherwise they wouldnt be called slavs, but turks. Their language is Bulgarian, not Turkish!
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Post by hellboy87 on Jul 19, 2010 11:54:16 GMT -5
Pomaks who remained were forced to comply with the dogmas of Bulgarian nationalism? That was the case for everyone in Turkey.
And you're bringing that nonsense over to the Pomaks.
The Pomaks are culturally closer to Bulgarians than to anyone else.The only connection they have to Turks is Islam.
Yes,the Bulgars did go to todays Bulgaria,but they did not populate Bulgaria just like the Turkics did not populate Turkey and Azerbaijan.Naturally,there is of course a Turkic connection because of that and of the remaining cultural aspect.But they are primarily not Turkic Bulgaric.
Turks of Turkey have lots of Persian cultural heritage.I dont see Persians claiming you Turks as one of them unless we're talking about Islamic brotherhood.
You say that the Bulgars speak a Slavic dialect.A Slavic of what? Bulgarian? I'm not suprised if there a minor linguistic differences throughout Bulgaria.That is common even in small places and for small ethnic groups.Look at the Slovaks.
So I'm sure there are minor linguistic differences among the Christian Bulgarians.But there are enough Bulgarianess to distinguish themselves from other groups around them to show that they are Bulgarians.
Another thing about Turkey's involvement among Balkan Muslims,sure,as Toski stated,because Turkey is the successor state of the Ottoman Empire who was responsible for Islam in the Balkans,so there will be some sense kinshipness among them.But Turkey,as usual,as I know,is also very parasitic and imperialistic:using whatever connections,things in other countries to infiltrate them for their selfish purposes.
Pomaks are Pomaks,who are ethnic Bulgarian Muslims.A kind of Bulgarians if you will.Stop trying to rip off their connection to their more populous kin.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 19, 2010 12:35:31 GMT -5
i agree with everything that hellboy said
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Post by raven on Jul 19, 2010 14:56:40 GMT -5
Pomaks are ethnic Bulgarians there really is no point in arguing about this fact, that their regional dialect may have more Turkish influence in comparison to regular Bulgarian doesnt alter their ethnic origins. They are essentially a subgroup of Bulgarians.
That many Pomaks choose to identify with their religion more so than with their ethnicity is the case for many Pomaks, in fact the Pomaks are far more religious than Bulgarian Turks are in many respects. i have heard that in many Pomak villages in the Rhodopes alot of the women have Islamic dress codes (something which is pretty much completely absent among BG Turks) and that in recent times there have been fears of radical Islamism taking hold in many Pomak villages.
Its seems as though due to the remote mountanious territories which the Pomaks largely inhabit the "secularization" process which took place in other parts of the country during the communist era didnt have as much of an impact in the Rhodope regions.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 20, 2010 0:34:03 GMT -5
how are the Pomaks ALWAYS classified UNDOUBTEDLY? As south slavs! So south slavs CAN NOT speak Turkish, otherwise they wouldnt be called slavs, but turks. Their language is Bulgarian, not Turkish! On the one hand, the Pomak language is heavly influenced by the Turkish langage, and bulk of Pomak population speaks Turkish as good as the Turks do. On the other hand, it is true that Pomaks speak a South Slavic dialect. However, let us also recall that Cumans who settled in Hungary now speak Hungarian instead of a Turkish dalect. In my opinion, Pomaks are not some ethnic Bulgarians, bulk of Pomaks does not have any intention to become one.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 20, 2010 1:14:46 GMT -5
Pomaks are ethnic Bulgarians there really is no point in arguing about this fact, Of course it could be argued on basis of historical facts. Bulgarian Nationalistic Dogma is simply not enough to counter the arguments asserted in relation to the origin of Bulgarians or Pomaks. In fact, when the origins of the Bulgarians are deemed to be Turkic by the bulk of world historians (excluding Danube Bulgarian ones), it would be funny to talk about Pomaks as some ethnic Bulgarians, particularly when those Pomaks were the ones who sided with the so called " evil Turks" against ethnic Bulgarians during 1877-1878 War and beyond. I suggest you to a map of last election results in Bulgaria, and to which party Pomak regions voted for.
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