Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Nov 29, 2010 8:01:08 GMT -5
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 29, 2010 8:42:27 GMT -5
The difficulty with 'classifying' Slav Macedonians stems from the fact that Bulgaria did not successfully incorporate them into their national awakening. It's tradition in the Balkans to treat national consciousness and nationalism as continuous ,, but nationalism is comparatively a recent phenomenon, and often impoverished Christian peasants of the peripheries had to be 'reminded' or 'educated' by 19th century intellectuals and nationalists what nationality they belonged to .. because previously, their only sense of identity was religion, and terms like 'Serbian' or 'Bulgarian' had more often an ecclesiastic meaning rather than a strictly ethnic/linguistic. So for example, the 'Serbs' of Bosnia (many of whom descended from local Slavicized Vlachs who happened to be of the Orthodox faith) prior to the national awakening often refered to themselves simply as Christians rather than as Serbs. Likewise the Serbs of Kosova didn't call themselves 'Serbs' but simply 'Kosovci' and their language as 'nas jezik' rather than 'srpski'. It goes to show how strongly (or weakly for that matter) the national identity was instilled in these peasants.
The same situation was prevalent in Macedonia. Except here the Bulgarians were not as successful as the Serbs were in Kosova and Bosnia. They did not succeed in conquoring the territory and because of its strategic location, Macedonia was a focuse point of various influences and the Serbs were strong here as well. The result was that the national identity of the Macedonian Slavs was left in oscillation and the Bulgarian alternative did not prevail as in other territories where the Bulgarian language was spoken.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 29, 2010 8:49:03 GMT -5
"So for example, the 'Serbs' of Bosnia (many of whom descended from local Slavicized Vlachs who happened to be of the Orthodox faith) prior to the national awakening often refered to themselves simply as Christians rather than as Serbs."
Pokemon, why do you have to propagate kafana stories you just heard near your local mosque?
As far as the rest of your rubbish post is concerned, we must remind readers here that Serbs, were the ONLY nation in the balkans with a RICH culture of folk songs/poems directly referring to the greatness of Serb nation back in middle ages (pre-1400). (an example is the continuation of the stories about the battle of kosovo through many songs which survived till today).
So, all this myth for the supposedly non-existing national conscience in pre-19th century is pure .... albanian.... pokemonian .... BULLSHIT.
PS
many of the medieval rulers of your land and my land were Serbs from Bosnia.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 29, 2010 14:23:13 GMT -5
Actually I think the people in Macedonia felt Bulgarian till late 19 century when Novakovich ideas of serbian support of the not popular "macedonian" idea. After that the idea of macedonism became some kind of fashionable among some intelectuals. It wasnt till after 1945 when this idea became mainstream and erose the idea of the bulgarian character of Bulgaria.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 29, 2010 19:00:55 GMT -5
The divide is political, and the differences between Bulgarians and Macedonians today have been artificially implanted by politics.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 30, 2010 2:31:31 GMT -5
^^^^ Hmmm yeah, while the absurd and violent formation of your nation (a mix of Turks/Ukranians/Serbs) was smth natural .... and not artificial at all... LMAO
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 30, 2010 3:35:26 GMT -5
"So for example, the 'Serbs' of Bosnia (many of whom descended from local Slavicized Vlachs who happened to be of the Orthodox faith) prior to the national awakening often refered to themselves simply as Christians rather than as Serbs." Pokemon, why do you have to propagate kafana stories you just heard near your local mosque? As far as the rest of your rubbish post is concerned, we must remind readers here that Serbs, were the ONLY nation in the balkans with a RICH culture of folk songs/poems directly referring to the greatness of Serb nation back in middle ages (pre-1400). (an example is the continuation of the stories about the battle of kosovo through many songs which survived till today). So, all this myth for the supposedly non-existing national conscience in pre-19th century is pure .... albanian.... pokemonian .... BULLS HIT. PS many of the medieval rulers of your land and my land were Serbs from Bosnia. I'm sure all of that made sense in your head, but it holds no pertinence to what I wrote. The oral tradition of Serbs is not uniquely Serbian -- the rest of the Balkans have them too. It proves little. If it should be held as the measure of national consciousness, surely the Serbs of Kosova would be the most nationalist of them all, being that they live(d) in the very land where the battle was fought. And yet Serbian officials of the 19th century were complaining that the Slav peasants of Decan had started referring to themselves as 'Russians' under the presence of Russian influence. They were really open to any Orthodox power's influence, and in the end, it just so happened that Serbia utilized its advantage of geographic proximity to strengthen its influence to the extent that the Orthodox Slavs of adjacent regions started identifying with Serbian nationalism. It was certainly not continuous.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 30, 2010 4:49:54 GMT -5
Alright, pls name ONE non-Serbian folklore poem/song which dates to prior-1500.
like this one:
PS i didn't notice you mentioning about your supposed "Bosnian vlah" theory. Any sources besides al-jazeera garbage?
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 30, 2010 10:42:38 GMT -5
The formation of my nation occurred as a result of natural events, some may have been violent, but they were definitely not artificial (ie. no one paid anyone to do what they did, the Bulgars settled the area and assimilation of the Slavic tribes was inevitable).
On the other hand, the formation of the modern Macedonian nation began as a paid initiative sponsored by the Serbian government and continued by the Yugoslavian government.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Dec 1, 2010 15:53:31 GMT -5
Alright, pls name ONE non-Serbian folklore poem/song which dates to prior-1500. like this one: And where's the evidence the song was composed before 1500, picko jedna? www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 3, 2010 5:33:52 GMT -5
From the above source: nuff said. The guy is a paid agent who will most probably commit suicide after he retires. His text is laughable from many perspectives. My wife is a bosnian Serb, no "latin" memories, no horse-breeding memories, no movement and mobilization memories, etc... However this stupid targeted and biased text of this paid Serb hater contains some interesting things about 1400+ and the movement of various Serbian people. I, my self, would put the transfer of the Peloponesian bogomils (who became later the known Boslims) and the Epirotan Serbs to Bosna around this time. This fits perfectly with my theory. I am 100% sure the catholics/muslims were using the term Vlah to offend Serbs, because of their place of origin : Epirus. We all know (and i am from there) that at least in 12-14th century a major part of the population in Epirus/Thessaly were Vlah (Roman) speakers : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_WallachiaThe toponyms (which show great ressemblance between Epiros<-->Krajina and Peloponese<-->FederacijaBiH) speak for themselves. Thank you Donnie.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 3, 2010 6:28:27 GMT -5
"So for example, the 'Serbs' of Bosnia (many of whom descended from local Slavicized Vlachs who happened to be of the Orthodox faith) prior to the national awakening often refered to themselves simply as Christians rather than as Serbs." Pokemon, why do you have to propagate kafana stories you just heard near your local mosque? As far as the rest of your rubbish post is concerned, we must remind readers here that Serbs, were the ONLY nation in the balkans with a RICH culture of folk songs/poems directly referring to the greatness of Serb nation back in middle ages (pre-1400). (an example is the continuation of the stories about the battle of kosovo through many songs which survived till today). So, all this myth for the supposedly non-existing national conscience in pre-19th century is pure .... albanian.... pokemonian .... BULLS HIT. PS many of the medieval rulers of your land and my land were Serbs from Bosnia. I'm sure all of that made sense in your head, but it holds no pertinence to what I wrote. The oral tradition of Serbs is not uniquely Serbian -- the rest of the Balkans have them too. It proves little. If it should be held as the measure of national consciousness, surely the Serbs of Kosova would be the most nationalist of them all, being that they live(d) in the very land where the battle was fought. And yet Serbian officials of the 19th century were complaining that the Slav peasants of Decan had started referring to themselves as 'Russians' under the presence of Russian influence. They were really open to any Orthodox power's influence, and in the end, it just so happened that Serbia utilized its advantage of geographic proximity to strengthen its influence to the extent that the Orthodox Slavs of adjacent regions started identifying with Serbian nationalism. It was certainly not continuous. donnie - in all honestly there was a time I'd completely agree with everything you're saying but after doing enormous amount of studying on this subject its overwhelmingly clear Serbian ethnic consciousness has been continuously present from at least the 13th century. You don't have to look any further than Njegos - Ime mi je vjeroljub, prezime mi rodoljub. Crnu Goru, rodnu grudu kamen paše odasvuda. Srpski pišem i zborim, svakom gromko govorim: Narodnost mi srbinska, um i duša slavjanska. And the words of Saint Peter of Cetinje in front of Montenegrin soldiers before a battle in 1796: "U nama neugaseno SRPSKO srce kuca,SRPSKA krvca vrije" "In us an eternal Serbian heart beats, Serbian blood runs" And this isn't even in Serbia mind you, but in an independent Slavic state before the national awakenings.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 3, 2010 6:31:49 GMT -5
I, my self, would put the transfer of the Peloponesian bogomils (who became later the known Boslims) and the Epirotan Serbs to Bosna around this time. This fits perfectly with my theory. wtf??!!! LOL...Boslims... this is the reaction of pyrros when sees a book or any serious historical source:
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 3, 2010 7:51:44 GMT -5
I, my self, would put the transfer of the Peloponesian bogomils (who became later the known Boslims) and the Epirotan Serbs to Bosna around this time. This fits perfectly with my theory. wtf??!!! LOL...Boslims... It is just a theory Patrine, relax. And please stop trying to behave like Ioan or Asen with their undisputable sources. Gimme a break. It is clear that many issues regarding the balkans are open, and one of them is the question of how Peloponese and Epiros became de-slavicized. This surely wasn't done by any means of continuous greek Majority or Greek leadership or great greatness, as is the prevailing theory. Why? Because a deep and broad Slavic footprint on the toponyms would either mean that Slavs were the (ruling) majority or that Slavs would only be a (ruling) minority. Both minority and "inferiority" does not make sense regarding the toponyms. This way the toponyms would always have been greek. So i completely exclude the possibility of these people being assimilated. That's why i try to find sources that would verify the route that the toponyms show : Epiros->Krajna, Peloponese->Bosna. This theory of mine, would server a double goal, on one hand shed some light to the overall Bosnian question from a still unexploited source (the toponymic research of Epiros/Peloponese) and on the other hand bring some relief to those "ancient greek-wanna-be idiots" (like you) who would clearly sell their soul to Satan in order to have pure greek blood. PS You know i have read many books on the subject, and also i try to verify with historical sources the in-vivo experience. (so pls gimme a break with your smart-ass attitute). For instance, if forever Epiros was (ancient) Greek, how come and 2 of its largest cities have slavic names? 2 of its largest mountains? 160 out of the 160 springs of the Pamvotis lake (at the time called "megas Ozeros") has slavic names? It means one thing : Slavs completely owned the land (and this has got to be for more than 200 continuous years) The real question remains, why were we incompetent to do in 1000 years (greekify the toponyms) smth that Serbs in Vojvodina did in 50 years (completely Serbify the german toponyms)? PS2 Patrine, if you want to find the truth you gotta step out of your little poor nest called Greece. You gotta head to the balkans. PS3 Dont let me down by writing some off-the-shelf cliche. In this case you will be ignored.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 3, 2010 8:17:56 GMT -5
continue the research professor Pyrrovic, and then write a book and go to demonstrate it in Anita Pania...sto Alter... tha kaneis trela noumera... esy, o alvanos Aisthisiakos, kai o Vas-Vas Paraskevas... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Dec 3, 2010 9:41:36 GMT -5
ahhahhhahhh copy of Albanian style instrument and singing style
btw is that a goat/rams head on top of that instrument
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Dec 3, 2010 14:56:29 GMT -5
From the above source: nuff said. The guy is a paid agent who will most probably commit suicide after he retires. His text is laughable from many perspectives. My wife is a bosnian Serb, no "latin" memories, no horse-breeding memories, no movement and mobilization memories, etc... However this stupid targeted and biased text of this paid Serb hater contains some interesting things about 1400+ and the movement of various Serbian people. I, my self, would put the transfer of the Peloponesian bogomils (who became later the known Boslims) and the Epirotan Serbs to Bosna around this time. This fits perfectly with my theory. I am 100% sure the catholics/muslims were using the term Vlah to offend Serbs, because of their place of origin : Epirus. We all know (and i am from there) that at least in 12-14th century a major part of the population in Epirus/Thessaly were Vlah (Roman) speakers : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_WallachiaThe toponyms (which show great ressemblance between Epiros<-->Krajina and Peloponese<-->FederacijaBiH) speak for themselves. Thank you Donnie. Pls, if Malcolm is a "paid agent" so are you -- he is paid in cash and you in Serbian pvssy. So you if anyone should be sympathetic to his position, assuming it is true of course that he is a paid agent, its you. But truth is he is anacknowledged academic whose use of international archives and sources is so extensive and substantial as to make him among the leading experts of Bosnia and Kosova. This is also precisely why you're left with ad hominem attacks only, since youre not able to touch his arguments ,, the Vlach penetration of Bosnian territory is a testified fact (unlike your kafeneio speculations of Serb immigrants from Bosnia, lol) supported by primary sources, onomastic and linguistic evidence as well as the fact that the term 'Vlasi' was used interchangeably with the term 'Orthodox' in Bosnia. This is not because Muslim and Catholic locals wanted to "insult" the Serbs because that is to project modern pejoratives too far into history .. back then there was no reason for the term to be offensive, it simply had a linguistic/ethnic connotation and was an exonym used by Slavs to describe a people different from them. Likewise our term for Serb, "Shkja", might have a negative connotation today, but back in the days it was simply an ethnic term that described the Slavs, and is derived from the Greek word Óêëáâéíßáé ('Sklaviniai').
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Dec 3, 2010 15:03:00 GMT -5
I'm sure all of that made sense in your head, but it holds no pertinence to what I wrote. The oral tradition of Serbs is not uniquely Serbian -- the rest of the Balkans have them too. It proves little. If it should be held as the measure of national consciousness, surely the Serbs of Kosova would be the most nationalist of them all, being that they live(d) in the very land where the battle was fought. And yet Serbian officials of the 19th century were complaining that the Slav peasants of Decan had started referring to themselves as 'Russians' under the presence of Russian influence. They were really open to any Orthodox power's influence, and in the end, it just so happened that Serbia utilized its advantage of geographic proximity to strengthen its influence to the extent that the Orthodox Slavs of adjacent regions started identifying with Serbian nationalism. It was certainly not continuous. donnie - in all honestly there was a time I'd completely agree with everything you're saying but after your personality split arose, Mr. Hyde decided to say 'hi' ;D his words may be seen as signs of an early type of 'nationalism' that didnt permeate the whol Montenegrin society. Most warriors still fought for their religion, clan or voivoda .. there's an overall tendency to describe all kinds of historical anti.centralist struggle in the Balkans as "patriotism" or "nationalism" ,, like brigands whose activities are portrayed in bright colours ,, when really, we're just dealing with brigandage.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 4, 2010 3:54:19 GMT -5
ahhahhhahhh copy of Albanian style instrument and singing style btw is that a goat/rams head on top of that instrument We were playing that instrument in our royal courts why you were still slinging poop at each other in the Caucasus So you're comparing pre-19th century Serbian ethnic consciousness to brigands. I don't see this making any sense I'm sorry. Of course they fought for their religion, clan and vojvoda, that's how it is in any tribal society. However even with a tribal society ethnic consciousness can be present. Testaments of Serbs throughout history speaking of Serbian history, glory and Serbian unity proves this. And the fact that Serbs left toponyms referring to Serbdom speaks to the strength of their ethnic consciousness. Meanwhile, Albanians have changed names all throughout history, have changed religions, they were completely unaware of what Illyrians were until histoians and commies started to feed them propaganda and up until Skanderbeg had no movements of self-determination. If any group has been devoid of an ethnic consciousness in the balkans it has been the Albanians.
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Post by ljubotan on Dec 4, 2010 11:43:30 GMT -5
The gusla was never an instrument used by local Serbs from Kosovo. This instrument was typical in CG, southwest Serbia, Hercegovina & Lika. Again areas of true ethnic Serb affiliation and the craddle of Serbdom.
Did the Bulgarian kingdom bring their own to settle Kosovo during the 9th-10th centuries, well before the Serbs/Montenegrin rulers took it after over 200yrs of rule from the Bulgarians??
Just playing devils advocate...but those are the facts. Figure out the origin of the Gorani and you'll have the answer to majority of Kosovo Serbs and Northern Macedonia.
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