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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 23, 2011 17:50:10 GMT -5
I'm a Serb from the oldest country in the Balkans - Bosnia.
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Post by srbobran on Mar 23, 2011 19:43:29 GMT -5
Why's it the oldest?
I'm from Krusevac, Serbia with maternal roots from Zupa (area surrounding Krusevac) and from Montenegro and my Dad and his entire side of the family is from Kosovo.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 24, 2011 3:05:19 GMT -5
Why's it the oldest? I'm from Krusevac, Serbia with maternal roots from Zupa (area surrounding Krusevac) and from Montenegro and my Dad and his entire side of the family is from Kosovo. I think he meant it as a joke probably due to the some Bosniak excitement over the so-called pyramids and their claim to being the oldest continuing civilization in Europe.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 24, 2011 3:07:18 GMT -5
They could've been alien settlers from the Bosnian planet of Bosna located in the Virgo constellation.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 24, 2011 5:28:48 GMT -5
I was being both sarcastic and serious. Perhaps Macedonia as far as the name goes has the oldest state name. Macedonia is even mentioned several times in the bible. But with Bosnia for instance, we know it has the oldest known Stokavian manuscript (that of Ban Kulin)... Also in terms of age, Bosnia became a Kingdom in 1377. Compare this to Montenegro which became a Kingdom 533 years later in 1910. In any case Bosnia is much older then Montenegro in that manner of comparrison... If we consider also that Bosnia is an Illyrian name in origin then it is older then any of the slavic ethnic states in the Balkans. Then again it was likely also that it was the name of a river or hill that firstly became adopted as the name of a 'territory.' Having said this stuff in regards to Bosnia's statehood I think it still in the extreme overvalues any Bosnian ethnic connotations. Serbs had a presence there from its earliest mention in the DAI and theres plenty to believe that Serbs were the dominant ethnic presence along side Croats, Vlachs and some others like Hungarians. Also, white Croatia & white Serbia (outside the Balkans) should be considered more ethnic in connotation anyway. I certainly will sh!t on any suggestion of a widespread Bosnian ethnicity at any stage of its history. Statehood and ethnicity do not correlate very well in most cases in the Balkans. Bosnia & Montenegro are two great examples of that.
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Post by rusebg on Mar 24, 2011 6:28:58 GMT -5
The oldest state name in the Balkans is Bulgaria.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 24, 2011 8:39:12 GMT -5
The oldest state name in the Balkans is Bulgaria. Really? Macedonia was the name of a kingdom from the 4th century BC. A kingdom is also a state btw. Anyway, todays FYROM also illustrates both how ethnicity does and does not correlate with statehood.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 11:55:39 GMT -5
^ Old Great Bulgaria dates back to 630/632 AD. Danubian Bulgaria dates back to 680/681AD.
Ancient Macedonia and the modern day Republic of Macedonia are in no way related, and I'm sure you know that.
The oldest countries in Europe that exist under the same name today are San Marino, France, and of course, Bulgaria.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 11:58:54 GMT -5
Though, Macedonia has equal claims on Bulgaria as Bulgaria has on Macedonia.. so I guess you are technically right, but still, their claims on Ancient Macedonia are really nothing of significance.
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 12:42:36 GMT -5
The oldest state name in the Balkans is Bulgaria. You sure that's accurate?
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 12:45:54 GMT -5
Which Balkan country has been established before 680/681 AD? If you know of one, let us know.
And of course, as already mentioned, Ancient Macedonia and the modern day Republic of Macedonia have nothing to do with one another.
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Post by kijgol on Mar 24, 2011 13:11:06 GMT -5
And of course, as already mentioned, Ancient Macedonia and the modern day Republic of Macedonia have nothing to do with one another. If I was a poster on Macedoniantruth.org, I would tell you sir that you have commited a serious offense.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 13:26:37 GMT -5
^ Lol. Thos guy's got a forum now!? I'll have to go check it out.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 24, 2011 14:23:18 GMT -5
I was being both sarcastic and serious. Perhaps Macedonia as far as the name goes has the oldest state name. Macedonia is even mentioned several times in the bible. But with Bosnia for instance, we know it has the oldest known Stokavian manuscript (that of Ban Kulin)... Also in terms of age, Bosnia became a Kingdom in 1377. Compare this to Montenegro which became a Kingdom 533 years later in 1910. In any case Bosnia is much older then Montenegro in that manner of comparrison... If we consider also that Bosnia is an Illyrian name in origin then it is older then any of the slavic ethnic states in the Balkans. Then again it was likely also that it was the name of a river or hill that firstly became adopted as the name of a 'territory.' Having said this stuff in regards to Bosnia's statehood I think it still in the extreme overvalues any Bosnian ethnic connotations. Serbs had a presence there from its earliest mention in the DAI and theres plenty to believe that Serbs were the dominant ethnic presence along side Croats, Vlachs and some others like Hungarians. Also, white Croatia & white Serbia (outside the Balkans) should be considered more ethnic in connotation anyway. I certainly will sh!t on any suggestion of a widespread Bosnian ethnicity at any stage of its history. Statehood and ethnicity do not correlate very well in most cases in the Balkans. Bosnia & Montenegro are two great examples of that. Macedonia, Buglaria , and Croatia are all older than Bosnia in terms of being established states in the Balkans. Kulin's charter had elements of 'Stokavian' but the first real manuscript in contemporary Stokavian vernacular was actually the Vatican Croatian Prayer Book (it was actually called this in 1380 AD - 1400 AD). Bosnia's first mention was 'Bosona' and was described as a small territory ( horion) squeezed between the basin of the Bosna river and the Drina ( roughly 1/5th or 1/6th Bosnia's current size) and it only had a couple towns in it. Serbs are mentioned settling in these towns after they were expelled from Rascia by the Bulgarians.
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 14:26:25 GMT -5
Which Balkan country has been established before 680/681 AD? If you know of one, let us know. And of course, as already mentioned, Ancient Macedonia and the modern day Republic of Macedonia have nothing to do with one another. Greece.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 14:30:18 GMT -5
A country under the name of Greece came into existence in the 1800's. Ancient Greece was not known as Greece, there were various Greek city states.. neither of which had the name of Greece.
The East Roman Empire (ie. Byzantium) was also not known under the name of Greece.
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 14:32:24 GMT -5
When was the term "Hellas" for Greece first used?
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 14:33:22 GMT -5
How is that relevant to this discussion!? There ain't no country called "Hellas" today, now is there?
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 14:34:22 GMT -5
This is what the Greeks have been using.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 14:35:54 GMT -5
Yeah much like the modern day Iranians refer to themselves as Persians, but again, there ain't no country called Persia.
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