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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 14:36:21 GMT -5
Greece, in "greek" is Hellas.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 14:48:03 GMT -5
Ok friend, Ancient Greek history is not one of my strong areas of knowledge.. however, as far as I know Hellas refers to the Helladic culture/civilization rather than an actual state.
The First Hellenic Republic was established in the early 1800's, prior to that, I don't believe that there was an independent political state/entity under the name of Hellas.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 24, 2011 14:50:06 GMT -5
Though, Macedonia has equal claims on Bulgaria as Bulgaria has on Macedonia.. so I guess you are technically right, but still, their claims on Ancient Macedonia are really nothing of significance. Fyromacedonia has just as much connection to Ancient Macedonia as modern Bulgaria does to Old Bulgaria.
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 14:57:55 GMT -5
State and people's are two different things. The people's have existed far longer than any nation.
This is why it's difficult for us Balkan people to strictly claim one identity in all areas.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 14:58:27 GMT -5
That would be inaccurate. HOWEVER, if we were to actually look back, we have Old Great Bulgaria (est. 630/632 AD) AND then we have Danubian Bulgaria (est. 680/681).
So even if you choose to to dispute a connection of Bulgaria to Old Great Bulgaria, which would be inaccurate, you have no basis on disputing the fact that modern Bulgaria is a direct result of the Danubian Bulgaria of Asparuh.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 15:02:50 GMT -5
This is a debatable fact as one would need to assume that the modern day Greeks are exactly the same as the Ancient Greeks.. which is a completely different discussion that I don't feel like getting into.
The point of this discussion was pertaining to "oldest country", ie. a political state, entity, or kingdom of some sort. And neither one of the Ancient Greek states exist today under those same names.
I'm not sure what you mean by "one identity in all areas".
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 15:04:58 GMT -5
^ I'm referring to the gene pool in the Balkans. There is no way any one of our genes has strictly remained in one area (country).
In the Balkans especially it is easy to claim another identity; Language then if necessary religion, are the only factors.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 24, 2011 15:10:08 GMT -5
State and people's are two different things. The people's have existed far longer than any nation. This is why it's difficult for us Balkan people to strictly claim one identity in all areas. Interesting to note. Nations don't actually exist anyway, only people do. Nationhood is a concept, idea , ideology, i.e. intangible.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 15:10:54 GMT -5
Of course not. The East Roman Empire was one of the greatest empires of Europe, and as such, it was a multi-ethnic entity.
There, however, are problems due to more contemporary politics. For example, according to the Greek government 94% of Greece's population are "ethnic Greeks exactly the same as the Ancient Greeks", 4% are Albanians, and 2% are "others".
In my opinion, that 94% of supposedly homogeneous population is ABSOLUTE BS. The thing is that the Greek government has had, and still has, a very.. how should I put it, a very 'one dimensional' perspective to the ethnic minorities of their country. I've heard, and even talked to Greeks, who don't even speak Greek.
And of course, we have a whole bunch of people talking about ethnic purity and what not.. which brings on a pile of problems when talking about certain aspects of history.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 15:30:35 GMT -5
Interesting to note indeed. However, people change. Ethnicities don't remain the same, and many ethnic groups were altered in large scales during the medieval ages. People move, they blend, they mix, so how are we to draw a line of continuation? But then again, ethnicity is a state of mind really.. so I guess, anyone can be anything.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 24, 2011 15:37:56 GMT -5
That would be inaccurate. HOWEVER, if we were to actually look back, we have Old Great Bulgaria (est. 630/632 AD) AND then we have Danubian Bulgaria (est. 680/681). So even if you choose to to dispute a connection of Bulgaria to Old Great Bulgaria, which would be inaccurate, you have no basis on disputing the fact that modern Bulgaria is a direct result of the Danubian Bulgaria of Asparuh. Pre-Boris Bulgaria has just as much to do with post-Boris Bulgaria as Fyromacs and Ancient Macs. Cultural & linguistic continuity is the only applicable evidence towards ethno-historical claims.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 15:46:58 GMT -5
As usual, you're somewhat off-track. The discussion was pertaining to "oldest country", again, that means a political entity, state, kingdom, empire, or something of the sort.
Asparuh's Bulgaria was officially recognized as an independent political entity by the East Romans in 681AD. It was recognized under the name of Bulgaria, and it exists under that same name today. Tsar Boris's Bulgarian Empire was no different, it was a political entity which was known under the Bulgarian name.
You should really try to be more attentive to details. I find many of your remarks tend to take discussions off track.
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 15:52:12 GMT -5
^ This is why I say Greece
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Post by terroreign on Mar 24, 2011 16:03:15 GMT -5
As usual, you're somewhat off-track. The discussion was pertaining to "oldest country", again, that means a political entity, state, kingdom, empire, or something of the sort. Asparuh's Bulgaria was officially recognized as an independent political entity by the East Romans in 681AD. It was recognized under the name of Bulgaria, and it exists under that same name today. Tsar Boris's Bulgarian Empire was no different, it was a political entity which was known under the Bulgarian name. You should really try to be more attentive to details. I find many of your remarks tend to take discussions off track. It is on track. I said that because you said the Fyromacs have no connection to Ancient Macedon. If we're talking name-only, Macedonia is the oldest. If talking ethnically, Greeks then the Serbs. Where does "political entity" come into play? Type of government? Not one Balkan nation has the same form of government from medieval or ancient times, the oldest constitution I believe would be Serbia's (from Emperor Dusan), and the oldest recognized entity would be Philip's Macedonia, which has the same name as Macedonia today.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 24, 2011 16:48:13 GMT -5
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2011 16:48:39 GMT -5
Ok, so if a new country comes about somewhere in Europe, and it takes the name 'Sumeria'.. then they'd have the right to claim themselves as the "oldest country"? That's some rock hard logic there.
The Franks surely have a stronger claim than the Serbs in this matter. And again, if we're talking about Greeks, we'd need to assume that they are the same as they were in ancient times. For them to have remained the same for a couple of thousand years, we'd need to completely omit all that has happened between 0AD and 2011AD for example. If we omit that 2000 years, then sure, you may be correct. But thing is, selectively picking and choosing leads to too many errors and we may as well be reading fairy tales rather than history.
Though, it appears that many people on these forums prefer some over-hyped political fairy tale over historic fact.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 24, 2011 18:13:46 GMT -5
The Franks spoke a Germanic language and weren't from the Balkans lol
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 18:15:41 GMT -5
How is Greece not older than Macedonia?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 24, 2011 18:38:57 GMT -5
How is Greece not older than Macedonia? Because Greece was never really a 'country' until later times. Greeks were divided into small nations and city states , Macedonia being one of them. The Greek nation state is a relatively new concept.
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Post by uz on Mar 24, 2011 18:46:17 GMT -5
Off topic question; Was Alexander The Great's empire, The Macedonian Empire, or Hellenic empire?
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