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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 6, 2007 1:22:30 GMT -5
This is your superpower, and this is the level of European solidarity existing in the EU. Turks certainly do not need to be member of such naive organization which even deports her own citizens. One person kills another, and some other 5.000 gets punished. No sensible person wants to see such mindset taking greater role in the world. Italy set to deport 5,000 Romanians after murderBy Malcolm Moore in Rome and Bruno Waterfield in Brussels Saturday November 03 2007 Italy began rounding up thousands of Romanian immigrants for deportation yesterday after passing a new "public order and security" law. Police in Rome have begun rounding up RomaniansMasgras Neculai (30), a petty thief, was named as the first Romanian who would be expelled under the new law, which allows anyone who is considered "dangerous" to society to be sent home. The law was rushed through the Italian cabinet on Wednesday after huge public outcry following the savage murder of Giovanna Reggiani, a 47-year-old Italian woman, allegedly by a Romanian man. The decree was officially published yesterday and came into force immediately. Police began combing immigrant ghettos and arresting Romanians without permits. Government ministers have vowed to return 5,000 Romanians to their home country in the next few weeks. BlessingThe move appeared to have the blessing of the European Union. Franco Frattini, the European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security, said: "What has to be done is simple. Go into a nomad camp in Rome for example, and ask them: 'Can you tell me where you live?' "If they say they do not know, take them and send them home to Romania. That is how the European directive works. It is simple and safe. Romania cannot say they will not take them back, because it is an obligation that is part of being a member state of the EU.'' He also urged Italy to pull down the camps to prevent any Romanians from returning. However, the relevant European directive specifically states that expulsions should not be targeted at any ethic group, and that "the personal conduct of the individual concerned must represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society". Previous criminal convictions are not grounds enough for deportation, it adds, and deportees must be given one month's notice. Nello Rossi, the head of Italy's National Magistrates Association, said that each expulsion would have to be justified, and that "there cannot be mass indiscriminate expulsions". He said: "The new law does not appear to conform to our own constitution or to the European law which recognises the right of European citizens to circulate freely and stay within the territory of any member state." PlanesThe Italian home office said each Romanian would be brought before a justice of the peace to plead his case before being transported home on planes or buses. The Romanian government said that it accepts that any violent offenders should be repatriated. While waiting for transport, Romanians will be held in one of 13 detention centres. Some 20 Romanians were arrested in Rome, another 10 in Turin and handfuls from the rest of the country, while makeshift shacks were torn down. A team of Romanian police has arrived to assist. The move has enormous public support. A survey on Sky television in Italy showed 83pc of people backed the deportations. More than 550,000 Romanians, or 15pc of the immigrant population, have arrived in Italy since 2002. Walter Veltroni, the Rome mayor, has claimed that 75pc of all crimes in the capital this year have been carried out by Romanians. In contrast, petty crime in Romania has dropped by 26pc.(© Daily Telegraph, London) - Malcolm Moore in Rome and Bruno Waterfield in Brussels www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/italy-set-to-deport-5000-romanians-after-murder-1210281.html
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Nov 6, 2007 1:40:30 GMT -5
EU is an attempt to strengthen the decaying European position in the global economics and politics. After the WII, the weakened European states realized that they were no longer strong enough to assert their individual policies globally via diplomacy, weapons of mass destructions, social contracts, or trade relations. That is why, they decided to regulate the industrial relations and free trade within the Western European borders. Today, the EU is still a vain attempt of the European bourgeoisie and she will remain that way in the foreseeable future. Lies, lies, lies. Or ignorance or both. The idea for EU came when Shuman (French foreign minister) proposed to some countries (Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands and West Germany) to unite its national coal and steel industries. Why? Cause thhis way the West would control Germanys production of coal and steel (of which the weapons are made). So they made this community with superstate bodies to govern the production. It was such a sucsess for everyones economy that two additional communities were created 1957: the European Economic Community (EEC) establishing a Customs Union, and the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom) for cooperation in nuclear energy. In 1967 the Merger Treaty created a single set of institutions for the three communities, which were collectively referred to as the European Communities, although more commonly just as the European Community (EC). Vain attempt? Haha. Funny. Actually the EU started as an way to escape future war with Germany, later it was an answer to USSR and now its an union that tries to answer the challenges of today (the globalization). Actually its a recent search. Kind of agree here. There are different ideas for the future. What is obvious is that there would be some kind of political cooperation in the future, especially in the foreign affairs (the new treaty would establish a foreign minister of EU), army (European Army is on its way). Hmmmm. That is strange, having in mind how passionate your politicans are to join. And I must say they are more then ever. Too bad many countries oppose it (France even changed its connstitution so if EU and Turkey sign treaty it would be voted in a referendum by the french people), otherwise u should ve joined long time ago. Funny and untrue. There is economic prosperity. U dont hear of many middle easterns or chinease going to India or Subsaharan Africa do u? Plus if u travel through Greece (and partly through Bulgaria, and Romania) u d see how almost every main road is cofinanced by EU. Stagnant? The economy is growing. We ll see. At present your politicians do not care.
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 6, 2007 4:01:27 GMT -5
Lies, lies, lies. Or ignorance or both. When did you learn such things, in those Stalinist caves of Bulgaria which existed until 1990s? I do not need to read the chronology of events. I know these pretty well. All those things you "copy and paste" are pretty much related to industrial and trade relations. It is vain attempt indeed. Germany was practically destroyed as of 1945. So, the idea of the EU was not about preventing German revival. It was about how to cope with the changes taking place in the world. Those European states (including Germany and France) were no longer considered as "big power", even the UK experienced stiff struggle in her colonies after the WWII. So, those countries decided to develop some cooperation by focusing on economic aspects, such as the cooperation in coal and steel industries. There is no European agreement in relation to the future of the EU, and I am sure there will not be really. I do not care who opposes the prospect of Turkish membership in the EU. After all, I live my life pretty well without the EU, and I do not see any benefit that I could receive if Turkey joins. Bulk of Turks now feels the same. In my opinion, maintaining some cultural (such as sports, art, education), social and trade relations will be enough. Economic growth is quite low and the adult population is aging. Therefore, there will be a point at where social security system goes bankrupt and the fictitious capital amounts to nothing (devaluation of the Euro in the long run). Interestingly, I do not see the companies moving into the EU. Instead, I see capitalists moving out of the Western Block and investing in India, Turkey, China, and so on. That is why, the EU countries receives low educated migrants from the Eastern European or non-European countries, and that is why, a member like Italy does not mind deporting 5.000 of Romania's citizens over the night. Of course, they do care. Nobody can win elections consequently by ignoring public opinions.
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Post by superman on Nov 6, 2007 9:07:57 GMT -5
First, they send home just 20 people, etc. And not 5000!
Second, I don't know why are you envying EU? or is just frustration that you're not yet full members? Why this hatred against EU? So many turks are in EU and they're doing OK I guess, they did helped your economy.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Nov 6, 2007 9:35:01 GMT -5
When did you learn such things, in those Stalinist caves of Bulgaria which existed until 1990s? I guess u know alot about Bulgaria, huh?There were camps of course as in every communist country. But lets not kid ourselves that at the time Turkey was the fountain of democracy. I do not need to read the chronology of events. I know these pretty well. All those things you "copy and paste" are pretty much related to industrial and trade relations. Well I know these facts pretty well too. But u obviously have to be reminded again. Germany was practically destroyed as of 1945. So, the idea of the EU was not about preventing German revival. It was about how to cope with the changes taking place in the world. Those European states (including Germany and France) were no longer considered as "big power", even the UK experienced stiff struggle in her colonies after the WWII. So, those countries decided to develop some cooperation by focusing on economic aspects, such as the cooperation in coal and steel industries. Actually after WW1 Germany was ALSO practically destroyed. But still we got WW2. Germany, UK and France have sucsessful economies at present and even outside of EU can be great powers today, dont kid yourself. European Union leaders have reached agreement in Brussels on an outline of new rules to govern the 27-member bloc. At dawn on Saturday they announced a compromise to delay until 2014 a new voting system that reduces Poland's influence - the main stumbling block. Other proposals envisage a long-term president and a foreign affairs head. The new treaty, expected to be finalised later this year, preserves much of the planned EU constitution, which was rejected by voters in 2005. The treaty will need to be ratified by each of the EU's member states, before entering into force in mid-2009. EU DEAL: MAIN ISSUES Double majority voting delayed until 2014 Long-term EU president High Representative for foreign affairs Fewer national veto powers More powers for the European Parliament At-a-glance: Treaty proposals Deal paves way forward Have your say Devil in detail After two years of uncertainty, the road for EU reforms is clear, says the BBC's Oana Lungescu in Brussels. And following marathon discussions which were at times on the brink of failure, EU leaders emerged smiling at dawn on Saturday to announce the results. Having led the negotiations and brokered the compromise, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the current EU president, said: "We are very, very satisfied with what we have been able to conclude." The President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, paid tribute to Ms Merkel and handed her a bunch of flowers. Poles give their views on the EU reform treaty "This shows that Europe is on the move, and on the move in the right direction." Mrs Merkel conceded the talks had been hard - with Poland, the UK and the Netherlands each staunchly defending their interests. The main obstacle had been Poland's demand to keep its voting power, which is currently almost equal to that of Germany's, even though its population is only half as large. The new system - known as a "double majority" - will now be phased-in beginning in 2014 and fully implemented three years later. Under this system, a 55% majority of EU countries with at least 65% of the bloc's population will be required for a change to be approved. The treaty is also set to include most of the main points of the failed constitution, such as: a full-time president of the European Council - the regular gatherings of prime ministers and presidents a new foreign affairs chief, with the profile and the budget to give the EU more clout on the world stage fewer national veto powers more powers for the European Parliament a slimmed-down European Commission (from 2014) Britain and the Netherlands also got what they wanted from the summit. "The four essential things that we in the UK required in order to protect our position have all been obtained," said Tony Blair at the end of his last EU summit as British prime minister. "Those were first of all to make it absolutely clear that the charter on fundamental rights was not going to be justiciable in British courts or alter British law." Mr Blair also wanted to maintain national control over foreign policy, justice and home affairs. The Netherlands, too, was satisfied that the role of national parliaments in Europe is to be strengthened and the criteria for new members joining the EU are included in the treaty. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6232540.stmOk, I m glad u feel great without EU. Still till today the countries that have entered have felt only positives. We have to bear in mind that some countries would hardly grow because they do enjoy an amazing standart of living. And still they grow. The Eastern block is growing. Actually lots of the Eastern countries accept companies (Romania, Poland). As for Italy deporting Romanians, it would not happen for a long. Soon they wont have grounds for doing it. We both are in the beginning of our membership and still there are some obsticles.
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 6, 2007 10:15:49 GMT -5
I guess u know alot about Bulgaria, huh?There were camps of course as in every communist country. But lets not kid ourselves that at the time Turkey was the fountain of democracy. You are right about that. No problem if you felt that way. The outcome of the WWI was not total destruction, but a collapse of the imperial Germany. Germany lost land and she was forced to acknowledge shameful peace terms, but it was not destroyed. The article strengthens my points. The EU still is stuck with some constitutional delays. Yet, it is still uncertain how such broad terms could place impact on the future directions of that entity. I think I could live without the EU. Yes they do, but it is not possible to maintain some high standards of living with some low growth rates. In Eastern parts, the pace in growth is still low compared to the growth rates of the emerging countries like Turkey, Malaysia, India, China, and so on. Countries like Romania, Bulgaria and Poland are still the poor ones compared to the Western members, that is why those still offer cost cuts for the companies moving abroad. However, this could not go on forever for sure.
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 6, 2007 10:22:42 GMT -5
First, they send home just 20 people, etc. And not 5000! Second, I don't know why are you envying EU? or is just frustration that you're not yet full members? Why this hatred against EU? So many turks are in EU and they're doing OK I guess, they did helped your economy. I only posted an article, Superman, it was not something I made up. ;D Nevertheless, I do not hate the EU, I do not want to be a part of it just like the Norwegians and the Russians. Hence, I do not think that the future of the EU is so bright. Therefore, I believe that we should rather keep our distance with it, is this so strange.?
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Post by superman on Nov 6, 2007 10:23:48 GMT -5
well, that's a prejudice...GDP of Romania stands at 60% of medium, and wages from Romania are just 10-15% less than those from Czech Republic...Romanian economy did changed very quickly, maybe you were right for economy of 10 years ago...that was another question. Now, Romania is a rich country, it has GDP per capita bigger than Turkey.
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Post by yahadj on Nov 6, 2007 11:06:27 GMT -5
superman, don't worry be happy! Enjoy EU and your "wealthy" Romania!
But we still want to go independantly. Is that OK? No?
But why?
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Post by superman on Nov 6, 2007 11:34:47 GMT -5
it's OK and it's not OK EU needs to expand, think that you're part of the greatest political state ever build with so much diversity, think about it, you'll be part of EU soon, in 2017 you'll be member, I bet with you
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Post by ahristos on Nov 6, 2007 23:50:37 GMT -5
yok avrupa.....i say stay in asia turks
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 7, 2007 4:00:53 GMT -5
Greece should join Turkey if the EU wants us to remain out of the EU.
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Post by superman on Nov 7, 2007 8:51:00 GMT -5
Greece to join Turkey? what about viceversa?
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Post by yahadj on Nov 7, 2007 9:14:49 GMT -5
yok avrupa.....i say stay in asia turks Ahriste! Finally we agreed on something! What if we turn Europe into Asia... ;D
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Nov 7, 2007 19:23:09 GMT -5
I can understand if Turks do not wish for a EU membership. Does anyone know of polls conducted in Turkey to find out the popularity of a EU membership among ordinary citizens? Turkey has afterall always had an intermediate position between Europe and Asia. Additionally, as many have already noticed, EU's future isn't something clear; this is not to say it is going to collapse or anything. It's just that its future political shape, whether we're heading towards some type of federalism, is something that's uncertain and of crucial importance to know.
Turkey has the size and economical potential to retain some level of political and financial independence, atleast in the future. But in Europe itself, I do not see much reason for individual states to boycott a EU membership. Switzerland & Norway are perhaps unique cases in the sense that they're economically very stable countries, even for western standards. The issue, however, and fear of many people who are reluctant of EU, stems from an anxiety of a potential loss of sovereignity as a result of joining this union.
Imo, it is of importance to differentiate between formal and real sovereignity. EU, being such a major economic block, dictates the conditions for trade in most of Europe and much of the rest of our world. So, while not being a member of EU, you might officially/formally have total sovereignity, but in reality, much of your choices are narrowed down to options dictated by bigger powers, be it in the economical or political sphere, two fields that are interconnected obviously. EU membership means a loss of formal sovereignity; for instance, EU laws have preference over national laws, even constitutional ones. However, in reality, being a member of EU does open doors to a higher level of real influence which smaller nations can exercise through the various institutions that compose the EU.
With the rising economies of the East, namely China & India, the real competitors to these giants remain the US & EU. For Europeans to dream of further major influence in the global market, unity is the only path towards such a thing. It provides an effective means of staying put in the world market as a major economic block from which each individual member state might benefit from. Furthermore, the level of interdependence that is created, which was also [one of] the original idea behind EU, blocks any potential European conflict again.
In alot of ways, I am sceptic when it comes to EU. I do not wish to see national identities being sacrificed for the sake of an artificially created identity that is 'European'. Nevertheless, I do see it as a tool of peace and further economic prosperity in the sense that only united can one challenge the huge economies of the rising East. Where Turkey chooses to go is an internal Turkish affair, since Turkey has never been an obvious member of either continental faction. Those within EU who oppose respectively support Turkish membership, are people who want centralization respect. decentralization. So, when thinking of one's personal opinion, this should be something to consider before making a final judgement about TR and its relation to EU.
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 8, 2007 1:27:35 GMT -5
I can understand if Turks do not wish for a EU membership. Does anyone know of polls conducted in Turkey to find out the popularity of a EU membership among ordinary citizens? The latest poll conducted revealed that only 26% of the Turks supports the EU accession process, and 54% of the Turks believes that EU's overall role of in the world politics must be reduced significantly.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Nov 8, 2007 6:53:52 GMT -5
I can understand if Turks do not wish for a EU membership. Does anyone know of polls conducted in Turkey to find out the popularity of a EU membership among ordinary citizens? The latest poll conducted revealed that only 26% of the Turks supports the EU accession process, and 54% of the Turks believes that EU's overall role of in the world politics must be reduced significantly. Well, I am not so sure EU is such a significiant international factor politically speaking. I mean look at their incapability of reaching a consensus over the Kosova issue; when it comes to 'foreign politics', each member state is allowed to pursue its own path, and in that respect, EU's possibilities to actively engage in world politics are dictated by each single state. Otherwise, it would not have been possible for some EU states to actively support the invasion of Iraq (Britain) while others actively opposed it (France). Ironically, Turkey's (hypothetical) membership would only contribute to diminishing EU's chances of exercising a common foreign policy.
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Post by ahristos on Nov 8, 2007 10:43:35 GMT -5
eu dont needs turks but turks needs eus paras 4 me turks can go there where they belongs and this is not EU
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Post by superman on Nov 8, 2007 11:17:27 GMT -5
kurds wants EU or not?
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Post by yahadj on Nov 8, 2007 12:39:34 GMT -5
Of course they do! They've heard about stong and prosperous Romania and all of them want to go to work there.... ;D
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