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Post by tileiohmaleas on Feb 1, 2008 20:51:58 GMT -5
Sarkozy and Merkel slam the EU door
‘No place for Turkey’
FRANCE and Germany have slammed the door in Turkey’s face, saying it has no place in the European Union.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel said they both agreed that Turkey cannot become an EU member state.
Their blunt remarks were made before the conference of the ruling UMP party in Paris, on Wednesday.
Nicosia, which hopes to use Turkey’s EU aspirations to gain concessions on Cyprus peace talks, yesterday distanced itself from the statements but did not rule out a change of tack.
Different
"As you know, the position of the Cyprus government was different when the decision was being taken to give the green light to Turkey to start accession negotiations with the EU," Government Spokesman Vassilis Palmas said.
But he left the door ajar, saying politics were never static.
"Politics are never static. They develop and you adapt to developments and the course which will follow, depending on what you have to face at a given time."
Sarkozy was categorical in again rejecting the possibility of Turkey entering the bloc, saying that it could instead benefit from a "privileged partnership.
"I want to be a friend of Turkey but I want to say that Turkey does not have a place in Europe, simply because it is in Asia Minor.
"Turkey must benefit from the status of a privileged partnership" he told a meeting of the UMP (Union for a Popular Movement) .
"Before thinking of countries which are not in Europe, we should perhaps think of countries that are, we must not let ourselves be caught in a trap, all the countries neighbouring on Europe do not have an opportunity to join Europe…. If we keep enlarging Europe, we will kill Europe, " he said to applause.
United
Moments earlier, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, guest of honour at the meeting, also voiced her opposition to Turkey’s entry in EU 27.
"One thing that unites the UNP and the CDU (the German Conservative Party) is that the two of them want to propose a privileged partnership to Turkey and not full membership," she said.
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Post by yahadj on Feb 2, 2008 7:18:26 GMT -5
Thank you, thank you... That is why I like Sarkozy. He is sincere. Turks need to know their place.
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Post by BibleRiot on Feb 2, 2008 11:46:11 GMT -5
Turkish membership was aways incompatible with building a united Europe. Those who favour Turkish membership (UK,Sweden) are those who only joined the EU for economic reasons, not because they wanted to build a new political entity.
Turkey and Europe should be close partners, it's good for both. But Europe is about building a new historical consciousness, and Turkey is too big, too US-aligned and too religious at the moment. Politically, Europe already has one Poland, much to our cost (although Polish immigrants to the UK are a real blessing). We don't need another.
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 2, 2008 12:13:17 GMT -5
It shouldn't be about geography, but about common values and culture. Turkey, I believe, meets the longterm criteria for joining the EU, but it must make many reforms before being taken into consideration.
Someone here mentioned Poland, but I see nothing wrong with that country. They joined the EU a few years ago and they are hardworking people who try to advance their country. The same cannot be said about Portugal and Greece, which keep eating the cake without baking it.
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Post by hellboy87 on Feb 2, 2008 12:39:50 GMT -5
They cant use geography when it comes to Turkey.yes,most of Turkey is outside Europe,but what about Cyprus?
I would say,there are some big things about Turkey that separates it from Europe.But Turkey does have a case for Europe-culturally,historically and even racially.
But the thing is,Turkey cannot just be considered,just "European",because it has too much "Middle Eastern" heritage that makes Turkey differ totally from Europe. So I would defenetly think Turkey should have a priviledged partnership with the EU.Like that,Turkey honours its heritage and stays true to itself.
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Post by BibleRiot on Feb 2, 2008 12:46:52 GMT -5
Love the Poles, but the terrible twins were a nightmare.
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Post by hellboy87 on Feb 2, 2008 12:51:35 GMT -5
oh yea,now I remember Poland was being led by those twins! ha ha!!!
Apparently,when they were young they were actors or something because i remembered the news showing footage of them as kids.
Also,was it because of them that sooo many Poles left? Maybe I'm guessing
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Post by yahadj on Feb 2, 2008 13:37:24 GMT -5
Turkey has its own identity. During its most successful years of Ottoman Empire was mostly anti-European and had expansive imperial policies- if it could it would have conquered the whole Europe and make it Darul-Islam. It couldn't succeed. Then its collapse started... That is the historical relation of Turkey and Europe. Two antagonizing powers.
Also there is no Turkish contribution to European culture and art. Not becuase didn't have the ability but because was promoting different type of civilazation - Islam. Any human centered art- like sclupture, portrait painting had no place in our culture. Why? Because was simply considered as heresy... But in architecture Ottomans created countless marvels... So, we aretalking about totally different cultures. Mostly colliding with each other not embracing.
Turkish ambition for Europeanness is quite a new attempt started some 50-60 years ago. That would never be accepted by Europeans itself. Even Ataturk didn't claim and aim that. He was just trying to modernize the country but at the same time to preserve the good norms of its own unique Turkish culturel. However, later on, Inonu and his mason friends took us into a totally different new direction. They submitted the country to their Western masters. Tried to confuse people about their identity in order to establish national minority complex towards Westerners. So that Turks can serve better their new masters - the masters of The Modern World. That was artificial social manipulation. It worked as "graft versus host reaction" weakening and confusuing the whole society for decades, draging us into chaos and disorder. Young people killed each other for the "great purpose" of human made Western ideologies - communism, fascism and liberal capitalism. Once you are lost then you are easily deviated to all kind of directions...
We are still suffering form the remnants of this machinations and game theory strategies.
So I say we had enough of Europeanness. We need a brake so we can recover. You can't disregard your whole history and culture and claim you belong to a certain group if especially that group denies your kinship. That is called delusion - distorted reality - not even reality - can only be described as a schizophrenic "understanding" of the world and your place in it...
Turkey is seriously sick. Turkey has to wake up and realize its place and role. Independance is a must...
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 2, 2008 13:50:31 GMT -5
Yahac, there are EU memebers that support Turkish EU membership. Stop being such a cynic and relax a bit.
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Post by yahadj on Feb 2, 2008 13:56:03 GMT -5
You don't understand. A few ex-socialist EU members' support doesn't mean anything. The majority of EU won't accept us wholeheartedly, and they have a right in feeling that way. Just look at the history -the terrible Turk is there. They were scarred to death from Turks, since Turks stepped on that continent. I don't blame them. We simply don't belong there. We are different. We have always been different. Why don't we realize that...
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 2, 2008 15:55:33 GMT -5
Yahac, the motto of the EU is "united in diversity."
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Post by BibleRiot on Feb 2, 2008 16:09:28 GMT -5
the "great purpose" of human made Western ideologies
As opposed to killing each other to suit God's whims?
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"
Thomas Jefferson
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 2, 2008 17:09:59 GMT -5
the "great purpose" of human made Western ideologiesAs opposed to killing each other to suit God's whims? "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" Thomas Jefferson I think they object to coca cola, rock and roll and global warming.
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Post by depletedreasons on Feb 2, 2008 17:54:49 GMT -5
I agree with Yahac. You might celebrate your kind of diversity as you wish. After all, we do not want any trouble, we are just different, that is all.
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 2, 2008 20:49:14 GMT -5
You can say we when we talk about Circassia. Until then, say they. Now, they--that is, Turkey--will join the EU. Maybe not in ten years, or 15, but eventually they will join the union. Perhaps in the distant future, the land that was once Circassia will also join the EU--under the name of Russia!
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Post by yahadj on Feb 2, 2008 21:23:58 GMT -5
Well, that is true for priests and your churches as institutions. They were part of your despot regimes. Not in the case of Islam. We don't have mediators between us and God. It is one to one interaction. Nobody except Almighty God can forgive our sins. We don't do confessions to some priests and they don't have any power over us individuals. Muslims didn't initiate nine or so crusades. The imam is nothing than another believer who just helps to organize the prayer rituals...
Well, I am sorry for Christians. They had to go through a lot of misery until they get some liberty. But we mostly suffered of our own ignorance. Mostly because of ignorance about our religion. We got our share, too...
However. as I said before, Islam is not with oppressors but clearly rules against oppression. It is for social solidarity and equal treatment in front of the law. The monarch and the beggar should submit to the same laws...
And more about killing in the name of God. In Islam the conditions of killing are very clear. Killing is only permitted as defence and at equal terms. If non-Muslims kill one Muslim then you are allowed to kill only one of them. No exceeding of limits permitted. Killing of kids, women and elders during war is prohibited in any terms.
So, Islam is religion that clarifies clearly the rules for both peace and war. So it is complete instruction...
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 2, 2008 21:43:28 GMT -5
Well, that is true for priests and your churches as institutions. They were part of your despot regimes. Not in the case of Islam. We don't have mediators between us and God. It is one to one interaction. Nobody except Almighty God can forgive our sins. We don't do confessions to some priests and they don't have any power over us individuals. Muslims didn't initiate nine or so crusades. The imam is nothing than another believer who just helps to organize the prayer rituals... Well, I am sorry for Christians. They had to go through a lot of misery until they get some liberty. But we mostly suffered of our own ignorance. Mostly because of ignorance about our religion. We got our share, too... However. as I said before, Islam is not with oppressors but clearly rules against oppression. It is for social solidarity and equal treatment in front of the law. The monarch and the beggar should submit to the same laws... And more about killing in the name of God. In Islam the conditions of killing are very clear. Killing is only permitted as defence and at equal terms. If non-Muslims kill one Muslim then you are allowed to kill only one of them. No exceeding of limits permitted. Killing of kids, women and elders during war is prohibited in any terms. So, Islam is religion that clarifies clearly the rules for both peace and war. So it is complete instruction... Sounds good, Yahac. So when will Muslims become Muslims, then? Have they ever been, Muslims? I remember a certain Mehmed declaring Holy War against Moldavia. Why? Because we didn't want to pay you homage. I remember that same Mehmed promising the people of Akkerman (Cetatea Alba) that he would spare them, if they would lay down their arms. This they did, and you slaughtered them all.
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Post by yahadj on Feb 3, 2008 1:49:46 GMT -5
Me?? No, I was not around at that time. But I know what the book says. I told you before that Ottomans were not always good Muslims and they paid for their misdeeds.
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Post by Kefalus on Feb 3, 2008 2:11:20 GMT -5
Me?? No, I was not around at that time. But I know what the book says. I told you before that Ottomans were not always good Muslims and they paid for their misdeeds. What is a good muslim?
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Post by depletedreasons on Feb 3, 2008 3:11:36 GMT -5
You can say we when we talk about Circassia. Until then, say they. Now, they--that is, Turkey--will join the EU. Maybe not in ten years, or 15, but eventually they will join the union. Perhaps in the distant future, the land that was once Circassia will also join the EU--under the name of Russia! I can say "we" whenever I want as most of the Turkish people now oppose the EU membership, and this perception is not going to change in the foreseeable future, such as 10 or 15 years. As for Circassia (which is the sum of Karachay-Cherkessia and Kabardino-Balkaria), I am sure my dudes will be independent within a decade or two together together with Tatastan, Dagestan, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Bashkortostan and others non-Russian dominated republics. Perhaps, you are not aware, or you tend to evade some important facts in to consideration, but Russia is dying country, in which ethnic Russian population decreases quite fast (the Ethnic Russian population reduced by 2 million peoples only in 2007: en.rian.ru/russia/20050907/41327197.html). However, in those states I refer (and within some others including mother Russia), Muslim/Turkic populations increase rapidly. So, you guys must be really quick, of course, if you do not want a Turkic/Muslim member bigger than Turkey. ;D Nevertheless, I agree that Russia will eventually join the EU (Elderly Union), of course before becoming a member, it will shrink in size like Serbia did.
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